About the Binding Threads spell

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bleeding
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About the Binding Threads spell

Post by bleeding » Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:06 pm

Hello everyone!

I had a game session yesterday and the Wizard used Binding Threads on a Warrior enemy. He succeeded in casting the spell and the Warrior couldn't fight anymore except with kicks... and even though he had a Strength step of 7, he had to beat a Difficulty number of 10 to get free.

I find this spell to be really powerful for a 4th circle spell.

How to get rid of the effect of this spell without having a guy with dispel magic around?

ChrisDDickey
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Re: About the Binding Threads spell

Post by ChrisDDickey » Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:54 pm

At 4th circle I don't find the spell too bad.
It cost the Wizard at least 2 standard actions to cast the spell, and the spell only lasts rank rounds, the target gets a roll to end it prematurely (and step 7 against TN 10 will succeed an average of 1 in 4 times), and as you mentioned, there are Talents that can dispel or suppress it, or give you bonuses to your test to escape them. It could very well have been that the Wizard spent 2 rounds casting it and it had no practical effect at all.

Where the spell really gets annoying is when the caster gets Willforce. Then the target number jumps so high that some talent to overcome it becomes actually necessary. But a well rounded party should hopefully have something by that circle.

Belenus
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Re: About the Binding Threads spell

Post by Belenus » Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:21 pm

ChrisDDickey wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:54 pm
Where the spell really gets annoying is when the caster gets Willforce. Then the target number jumps so high that some talent to overcome it becomes actually necessary. But a well rounded party should hopefully have something by that circle.
Willforce doesn't increase the Effect step.
The only ability to do so is the Karma ability of the Illusionist 5th circle.
And except for Warriors, most other Disciplines can still act in other ways. Or another group member could dispel/suppress the effect (Dispel Magic / Suppress curse).

Sharkforce
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Re: About the Binding Threads spell

Post by Sharkforce » Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:29 pm

as a quick correction, willforce does nothing in this case: "He substitutes his Willforce Step for his Willpower Step when making a spell Effect test."

it is not a general-purpose replacement of your will step, it is a specific replacement of your will step ONLY when making a spell Effect test. binding threads does not have any spell Effect tests being made, and as such, Willforce does not apply.

anyways, that tangent aside...

if you gave that warrior 2 rounds to do whatever they want to the wizard, what do you suppose would have happened? we have a wizard who spent 2 (or more) rounds to mostly remove a warrior from the fight, and had to beat the warrior's MD to do so, and the warrior can still escape albeit not extremely easily (no burning vigour... *yet*, that is). I cannot help but suspect that if the situation was reversed and the warrior was allowed to spend 2 rounds attacking the wizard, the wizard would be at the bare minimum knocked down and suffering multiple wounds, if not actually unconscious/dead which is also a very unpleasant negative status effect to get out of.

bleeding
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Re: About the Binding Threads spell

Post by bleeding » Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:55 pm

ChrisDDickey wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:54 pm
At 4th circle I don't find the spell too bad.
It cost the Wizard at least 2 standard actions to cast the spell, and the spell only lasts rank rounds, the target gets a roll to end it prematurely (and step 7 against TN 10 will succeed an average of 1 in 4 times), and as you mentioned, there are Talents that can dispel or suppress it.
Yep but the problem is when he encounters a target with a Strength with less than step 7 in Strength AND he has one Warrior and one Sky Raider preventing the target from hitting the Wizard.

Almost looks like a One Shot spell, if the target can't get free, it must run, surrender or suffer punishment from the blows of the fighters.

bleeding
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Re: About the Binding Threads spell

Post by bleeding » Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:57 pm

Sharkforce wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:29 pm

if you gave that warrior 2 rounds to do whatever they want to the wizard, what do you suppose would have happened? we have a wizard who spent 2 (or more) rounds to mostly remove a warrior from the fight, and had to beat the warrior's MD to do so, and the warrior can still escape albeit not extremely easily (no burning vigour... *yet*, that is). I cannot help but suspect that if the situation was reversed and the warrior was allowed to spend 2 rounds attacking the wizard, the wizard would be at the bare minimum knocked down and suffering multiple wounds, if not actually unconscious/dead which is also a very unpleasant negative status effect to get out of.
Of course but the Wizard has two fighters with him so he was relatively safe from the Warrior. I think that spell can quickly end any fight instead of doing damage over time like many spells like mind dagger.

Sharkforce
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Re: About the Binding Threads spell

Post by Sharkforce » Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:04 pm

bleeding wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:57 pm
Sharkforce wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:29 pm

if you gave that warrior 2 rounds to do whatever they want to the wizard, what do you suppose would have happened? we have a wizard who spent 2 (or more) rounds to mostly remove a warrior from the fight, and had to beat the warrior's MD to do so, and the warrior can still escape albeit not extremely easily (no burning vigour... *yet*, that is). I cannot help but suspect that if the situation was reversed and the warrior was allowed to spend 2 rounds attacking the wizard, the wizard would be at the bare minimum knocked down and suffering multiple wounds, if not actually unconscious/dead which is also a very unpleasant negative status effect to get out of.
Of course but the Wizard has two fighters with him so he was relatively safe from the Warrior. I think that spell can quickly end any fight instead of doing damage over time like many spells like mind dagger.
you're not quite there yet, but you're not too far away from the point where a warrior who builds for it can easily eliminate one target per round.

meaning that by the time the wizard has gotten the second turn, having likely lost to that warrior, the fight can already be half over. and once again, there is no set time limit on the targets getting back up, generally speaking, nor are there any tests they can do to escape, nor do they potentially get to take limited actions, when the warrior puts them down. furthermore, it isn't *too* uncommon to face enemies at that circle where a TN 10 strength test to escape is not that hard to make, or where not being able to use their arms is not that big of a deal. you're comparing to what I would say is among the most favourable targets for that spell possible.

I will also add... mind dagger is not really a good source of damage. it isn't supposed to be a good source of damage. frankly, it isn't really even supposed to be that great of a combat option in general. if it *was* an actual highly effective way to defeat enemies, there wouldn't be much point in warriors even existing. so yes, binding threads is definitely a more effective way to remove (some) enemies from combat than mind dagger. it also has a high action cost, and likely won't do anything at all until the end of the second round of combat at the earliest, and even then it can be ended and the target could just go right back to fighting at full strength again.

ChrisDDickey
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Re: About the Binding Threads spell

Post by ChrisDDickey » Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:45 pm

Sharkforce wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:29 pm
it is not a general-purpose replacement of your will step, it is a specific replacement of your will step ONLY when making a spell Effect test. binding threads does not have any spell Effect tests being made, and as such, Willforce does not apply.
I had understood that Effect Steps were always rolled and that "Effect Step" was just short for "The result of rolling an Effect Step", but I was apparently mistaken.

Belenus
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Re: About the Binding Threads spell

Post by Belenus » Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:40 pm

ChrisDDickey wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:45 pm
I had understood that Effect Steps were always rolled and that "Effect Step" was just short for "The result of rolling an Effect Step", but I was apparently mistaken.
Thought so too until around a year ago (as everybody else I know). Also only learned it by someone clarifying it here in the forum. Could need an Errata / Clarification in the Players Guide.

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