Astral Space attacks

Discussion on game mastering Earthdawn. May contain spoilers; caution is recommended!
Sushy
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Astral Space attacks

Post by Sushy » Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:33 pm

Hi!
I tried to find a similar post but couldnt find one so maybe I have overseen it then sry for that.

Here my question I would like to answer on official site or by reference in rule set.

In the Targeting of Spell area its clear that you can attack s.th. in Astral Space with specific "mystic" Spells/Talents.
Also it is phrased in the Magic chapter that something in Astral Space can interact with normal space via specific talents and powers.

Here is the question:
Can a astral beeing (e.g. ghost) attack a character in normal space by e.g. spells which are targeting astral like astral space or mystic shock without the need to manifest?
For me the rules would allow that but also this part of the rule is not 100% clear for me and we had a lot of discussion about that where nobody is the same opinion.

Sharkforce
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Re: Astral Space attacks

Post by Sharkforce » Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:45 pm

why would the rules allow that? it takes a special rule to allow a certain category of spells to go from the physical to the astral. there is no such rule in the opposite direction.

if an ability works from the astral to the physical, it would need to say so.

Sushy
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Re: Astral Space attacks

Post by Sushy » Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:02 pm

Sharkforce wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:45 pm
why would the rules allow that? it takes a special rule to allow a certain category of spells to go from the physical to the astral. there is no such rule in the opposite direction.

if an ability works from the astral to the physical, it would need to say so.
Players Guide "Astral and Physicals Forms":
Normally, physical beings cannot directly affect or interact with objects or beings in astral space, though some spells and magical
powers may allow them to do so. Likewise, astral beings cannot normally interact with things in the physical world without the use of magic spells or powers.

For me these spells would be e.g. Astral spells where you need to target astral parts and mystic effects like Mystic Shock or Astral Spear.

But I can't find a more detailed look on that. And I wouldnt make any sense if its not possible. Then e.g. adepts would be able to kill any deamon in astral space w/o having problems from it if it does not manifest.

Sharkforce
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Re: Astral Space attacks

Post by Sharkforce » Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:59 pm

OK, help me understand here.

why do you consider the possibility that certain specific adepts being able to deal with astral entities unless the entity manifests is a bigger problem than the vast majority of astral entities being completely and utterly unstoppable without those adepts being on guard 24/7?

ChrisDDickey
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Re: Astral Space attacks

Post by ChrisDDickey » Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:59 am

The most common way for an Astral being to interact with the material plane is the manifest power.

You could look at it like the only way for Novice or Journeyman Adepts to affect astral entities is to use Astral Sight and spells that affect mystic armor. I don't believe there is any other low circle option. At Warden and Master levels a few other options become available. Spirit Strike, Netherwalk, Etc. But these talents are rare, high powered, and not very many disciplines get access to these other ways.

Likewise the only way for lower challenge rating astral entities to affect the physical world is to manifest. As has been pointed out, the rules say that attacking from Astral to the Physical is possible, but by far the most common way is for the astral entity to manifest. The ability to attack from Astral without manifesting is a very powerful power, and would be overpowered on any challenge less than Warden or more probably Master.

To the best of my knowledge, nothing has been published that allows an Adept that might be on the Astral Plane (perhaps Netherwalking, or having passed through a Spirit Portal) to then attack back to the physical plane. This I believe is appropriate (because such an attack can so often be overpowering). Also, none of the more "common" published spirits or horrors have the ability.

However the book makes clear that such attacks might be possible, the developers have simply never chosen to grant the power or ability to make such attacks to any spell, discipline, creature, spirit, or horror they have published. I would think that the power to make such attacks could reasonably be granted to specific named horrors of Master challenge level.

Sushy
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Re: Astral Space attacks

Post by Sushy » Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:20 pm

The thing is that we countered a ghost in astral space on circle 4. It attacked us with an astral spell like mystic shoch or astral speer w/o manifest. We nearly lost one group member before we could fled.

No I want the correct argument to end the discussion on what powers/spells are allowed for ghost/daemons to attack from astral space to physical space. The rules say its possible but aren't specif about details. One argue can be that it can be any spell which is "astral" as it can cross borders in the other direction as well.

I would be ok with both, not possible and possible. But there seems to be not a consent about that at all.
And I don't even want to argue about helpless daemon who can't switch but can be killed from C2 players with Astral Sight and some Astral spelle ;).
The discussion are endless and I hoped to got an confirmation about that from some "official" site.

We have that topic in our round, and after talking to lot of players, gms and on our german community sites this is a open question mostly everywhere. One says so the other so and all are very confirmed about there opinion but when looking in detail nobody can prove it.

Sharkforce
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Re: Astral Space attacks

Post by Sharkforce » Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:35 pm

GM guide, page 373 (bolding added by me):

"Manifest
Step: N/A Action: Standard
The spirit can manifest in the physical realm. It takes a Standard Action for the spirit to enter the physical realm, or to return to astral space. Remember that to affect the physical realm, the spirit must be manifest."

this would be the general rule. now, that doesn't mean that a spirit (especially horrors, and even more especially the most powerful horrors, which break all kinds of rules of what should and should not be possible, that being part of what makes them scary) could not have a different power that might allow them to effect the physical from the astral. but it should mean that if the power does not explicitly grant that effect, it does not have it.

Belenus
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Re: Astral Space attacks

Post by Belenus » Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:25 pm

Sharkforce wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:35 pm
GM guide, page 373:
"Manifest
Remember that to affect the physical realm, the spirit must be manifest."
Attacking with an astral spell like mind dagger is not affecting the physical realm. It's targeting the astral structure (it's going against the mystical and not the physical armor).

Furthermore this ability is only true to spirits of all kinds. Horrors aren't spirits and use their own abilites to switch between the planes which havn't the sentence written in their description .

As Sushy already wrote: There are a damn lot of possible correct answers out there.
I think that all spells affecting the astral structure or which are aimed at the mystic armor should be possible to cast from the astral plane to targets in the physical world and vice versa.

A dev's answer would really help here.

Sushy
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Re: Astral Space attacks

Post by Sushy » Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:53 pm

First thing: thx, the GM sentence about spirits? - I haven seen so far and will mark it in my book.

BUT also: Exactly. This is the argue which comes: "Astral Spell are not effecting on the physical space they are on the astral site."
Still for me an interpreation which is possible and don't explain/solve this issue for my discussions I have.

ChrisDDickey
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Re: Astral Space attacks

Post by ChrisDDickey » Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:57 pm

Belenus wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:25 pm
Attacking with an astral spell like mind dagger is not affecting the physical realm. It's targeting the astral structure (it's going against the mystical and not the physical armor).
This explanation is making some extraordinarily dubious assumptions which I feel are plain old wrong.
First, is that a person has some sort of "astral structure", and that this "astral structure" can be attacked on the astral plane.
Name-givers are NOT duel natured beings. They are Physical beings. They have some things, such as aura's and patterns that are visible in astral space, but I have seen nothing whatsoever to hint that they are in any way, shape, or form naturally present on the astral plane. I am going to say that again, they are said to be observable on Astral, not present on Astral.

I believe a physical persons pattern is more on the physical plane that the astral plane. Yes, a pattern can't be seen or touched physically, but that does not mean that it is Astral, it is just simply most easily viewed via its astral echo. A being on the Astral Plane will have its pattern on the Astral Plane, but not so a being on the Physical Plane.

Nether does a spells attacking against mystic armor mean that it is Attacking on the Astral Plane.
A spell that is reduced by MA often works by attacking the targets Pattern. Such a spell works when it is cast upon a target on the Physical Plane. It also works when cast upon a target in Astral Plane. It is a logical fallacy to presume that this means that a name-givers pattern is solely present in Astral Space. I believe this is incorrect and that physical beings pattern is solely present in the physical world, with merely its echo visible in Astral Space.

Even though a physical beings pattern is visible in astral space, doing anything to the echo that is visible will do nothing, the pattern itself must be attacked in order to accomplish any damage. I don't believe any purely astral force can affect it at all unless the force can be projected into the physical plane where the pattern actually is. Again, I believe such across planes projection is possible, just rare. It requires special spells, powers, or Talents, and is not available to every entity that can cast a mind-dagger.

Belenus wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:25 pm
As Sushy already wrote: There are a damn lot of possible correct answers out there.
I think that all spells affecting the astral structure or which are aimed at the mystic armor should be possible to cast from the astral plane to targets in the physical world and vice versa.
True, there are a lot of possible correct answers.
But I do believe that a lot of those possible answer, such as positing that creatures on the Physical World have an Astral Structure on the Astral Plane that can be attacked on that plane, seems like it is adding an awful lot to the published word.

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