Penalties to "all tests" vs "action tests" vs Resistance tests.
Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:08 pm
I have a few issues with the list of things that are affected by penalties to "All tests".
I also have a question about what is included in the term "All tests", because the obvious answer "all means all" just does not seem to make as much sense as I wish it did.
The book uses the term "Action tests" (capitalized, which should mean that it has a specific meaning) a lot without defining it. I assume the definition is any test that is an action (even a free action) as opposed to something that just happens such as a roll to resist poison or disease. But it is not 100% clear. I am not 100% sure if Action tests also includes Effect tests and Damage tests, which are usually not actions.
Also, at my table we are groping towards a definition of a type of roll called a "Resistance test", which we feel should be a thing.
Following is a list of effects that impose a penalty to all tests.
Battle Bellow: 131, also Battle Shout and Taunt, Tail Attack, Etc. Harried and Overwhelmed pg 388
Debilitating poison (GM 172) might be all tests, or might be Action tests only. Wording is unclear.
Frighten page 149: ... suffers a −2 penalty to all tests for each success ... target may make a Willpower test against the adept’s Frighten Step. Note that this does not explicitly exempt the Willpower test from the penalty.
Wound Penalties page 291: For each Wound, a character suffers a cumulative –1 penalty to all tests
Defensive Stance pg 384: suffers a –3 penalty to his tests that round, except for Knockdown tests (and optionally "defensive actions")
Knocked down pg 390: suffers a –3 penalty to his tests (except jump-up)
Following is a partial list of things that impose penalties to "Action tests".
paralytic poison's (GM guide 172 and maybe debilitating poison's as well), Air Spear spell, Thunderclap spell, Vertigo spell, Astral Catastrophe spell, Etc.
In addition, there is a whole class of things that say they penalize against every test except the one test they need to succeed at to end the situation.
An example would be the Suffocation spell (pg 306) which is ended by succeeding at a Willpower test. The suffocation spell makes you Harried for all actions except Willpower tests. What is not clear to me is what else does or does not penalize the willpower test? Do things that penalize all tests penalize the Willpower test? If someone is Taunted or Battle Shouted, does that make them more likely to keep suffocating? If somebody is Taunted or Battle Shouted, are they less able to resist the effects of Poisons? it strikes me that these effects should not affect Resistance tests such as these. But in the RaW, I think they (probably) do.
So here are the house rules that we are feeling out. I would appreciate comments (especially official comment) upon them.
Rather than treat each Talent / Condition / Effect as a separate edge case, we are trying to group them into defined groups and then treat each defined group equally.
Resistance tests: These are tests meant to resist some ongoing effect such as a spell or poison.
We have decided that Resistance tests are not affected by Knocked Down. Are they affected by anything other than Wounds? How about debilitating poisons or diseases? IE: if you are debilitated, does the resistance test you make to resist the disease suffer the diseases penalty? How about being Battle Shouted or Taunted? Does this affect Resistance Rolls?
Does it matter if you are making an attribute only test (Depreciated in this edition - but which frankly will sometimes have almost no chance of succeeding if you allow penalties) or if you are using a Talent that substitutes for them? An Iron Constitution test is probably an Action test, and could in theory be affected by lots of stuff.
We are thinking that Recovery tests are penalized by nothing except Wounds (in the special way that the book specifies that wounds affect Recover Tests) and possibly debilitating poison's. In practice this just means that they are not affected by being Knocked Down, since you pretty much can't take a Recovery Test in combat, so should not be in a defensive stance nor Battle Shouted. So when a person is knocked unconscious during battle, they are automatically knocked down and blindsided. Upon making a recovery test to wake up, being Knocked Down does not matter. They are still Knocked Down after waking up. It just does not matter for the Recovery Test. Paralytic poisons do not affect recovery tests, because they affect only Action tests, and a recovery test is probably not an Action test. We are unsure about debilitating poisons, as that penalty might be to all tests. Note that FireBlood is also not penalized for being Knocked Down, but it is an Action Test.
Comments?
Just to restate and emphasize specific questions:
What exactly is an Action test and what is not?
When a penalty is applied to "All Tests", do people actually apply the penalty to all tests? Which tests do you exempt or not exempt at your tables?
If somebody is Frightened by the Talent, and needs to make a Willpower test to shake off the effect, do you apply the Frighten penalty to the Willpower test?
How about other resistance type tests?
If somebody was both Frightened and under the Suffocation Spell, would the penalty for being Harried penalize the Willpower roll to stop being Frightened and the penalty for being Frightened penalize the roll to stop Suffocating? And if they were also Battle Shouted, would it penalize ether or both?
And Recovery Tests?
Are debilitating poisons penalties to all tests or only action tests? Do they penalize tests to further resist the poison? And Recovery Tests?
And of course the problem here is that with some exceptions, the rule-book unambiguously states what should be done on these issues. I just think it is wrong.
I also have a question about what is included in the term "All tests", because the obvious answer "all means all" just does not seem to make as much sense as I wish it did.
The book uses the term "Action tests" (capitalized, which should mean that it has a specific meaning) a lot without defining it. I assume the definition is any test that is an action (even a free action) as opposed to something that just happens such as a roll to resist poison or disease. But it is not 100% clear. I am not 100% sure if Action tests also includes Effect tests and Damage tests, which are usually not actions.
Also, at my table we are groping towards a definition of a type of roll called a "Resistance test", which we feel should be a thing.
Following is a list of effects that impose a penalty to all tests.
Battle Bellow: 131, also Battle Shout and Taunt, Tail Attack, Etc. Harried and Overwhelmed pg 388
Debilitating poison (GM 172) might be all tests, or might be Action tests only. Wording is unclear.
Frighten page 149: ... suffers a −2 penalty to all tests for each success ... target may make a Willpower test against the adept’s Frighten Step. Note that this does not explicitly exempt the Willpower test from the penalty.
Wound Penalties page 291: For each Wound, a character suffers a cumulative –1 penalty to all tests
Defensive Stance pg 384: suffers a –3 penalty to his tests that round, except for Knockdown tests (and optionally "defensive actions")
Knocked down pg 390: suffers a –3 penalty to his tests (except jump-up)
Following is a partial list of things that impose penalties to "Action tests".
paralytic poison's (GM guide 172 and maybe debilitating poison's as well), Air Spear spell, Thunderclap spell, Vertigo spell, Astral Catastrophe spell, Etc.
In addition, there is a whole class of things that say they penalize against every test except the one test they need to succeed at to end the situation.
An example would be the Suffocation spell (pg 306) which is ended by succeeding at a Willpower test. The suffocation spell makes you Harried for all actions except Willpower tests. What is not clear to me is what else does or does not penalize the willpower test? Do things that penalize all tests penalize the Willpower test? If someone is Taunted or Battle Shouted, does that make them more likely to keep suffocating? If somebody is Taunted or Battle Shouted, are they less able to resist the effects of Poisons? it strikes me that these effects should not affect Resistance tests such as these. But in the RaW, I think they (probably) do.
So here are the house rules that we are feeling out. I would appreciate comments (especially official comment) upon them.
Rather than treat each Talent / Condition / Effect as a separate edge case, we are trying to group them into defined groups and then treat each defined group equally.
Resistance tests: These are tests meant to resist some ongoing effect such as a spell or poison.
We have decided that Resistance tests are not affected by Knocked Down. Are they affected by anything other than Wounds? How about debilitating poisons or diseases? IE: if you are debilitated, does the resistance test you make to resist the disease suffer the diseases penalty? How about being Battle Shouted or Taunted? Does this affect Resistance Rolls?
Does it matter if you are making an attribute only test (Depreciated in this edition - but which frankly will sometimes have almost no chance of succeeding if you allow penalties) or if you are using a Talent that substitutes for them? An Iron Constitution test is probably an Action test, and could in theory be affected by lots of stuff.
We are thinking that Recovery tests are penalized by nothing except Wounds (in the special way that the book specifies that wounds affect Recover Tests) and possibly debilitating poison's. In practice this just means that they are not affected by being Knocked Down, since you pretty much can't take a Recovery Test in combat, so should not be in a defensive stance nor Battle Shouted. So when a person is knocked unconscious during battle, they are automatically knocked down and blindsided. Upon making a recovery test to wake up, being Knocked Down does not matter. They are still Knocked Down after waking up. It just does not matter for the Recovery Test. Paralytic poisons do not affect recovery tests, because they affect only Action tests, and a recovery test is probably not an Action test. We are unsure about debilitating poisons, as that penalty might be to all tests. Note that FireBlood is also not penalized for being Knocked Down, but it is an Action Test.
Comments?
Just to restate and emphasize specific questions:
What exactly is an Action test and what is not?
When a penalty is applied to "All Tests", do people actually apply the penalty to all tests? Which tests do you exempt or not exempt at your tables?
If somebody is Frightened by the Talent, and needs to make a Willpower test to shake off the effect, do you apply the Frighten penalty to the Willpower test?
How about other resistance type tests?
If somebody was both Frightened and under the Suffocation Spell, would the penalty for being Harried penalize the Willpower roll to stop being Frightened and the penalty for being Frightened penalize the roll to stop Suffocating? And if they were also Battle Shouted, would it penalize ether or both?
And Recovery Tests?
Are debilitating poisons penalties to all tests or only action tests? Do they penalize tests to further resist the poison? And Recovery Tests?
And of course the problem here is that with some exceptions, the rule-book unambiguously states what should be done on these issues. I just think it is wrong.