Figments

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ChrisDDickey
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Joined:Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:02 pm
Figments

Post by ChrisDDickey » Fri May 28, 2021 9:08 pm

A while ago there was a discussion on Figments on the FASA channel as somebody questioned how Unseen Voices could work as a figment, The more I think about it, the more unclear about the topic I am. I listened to the most recent episode of ED Survival Guide, that talked about Illusion spells, but they did not really address this specific issue to my satisfaction. I am hoping for a discussion of what the figment tag really signifies. Why the spells that are listed as figments are so listed, and how the spells would be different if they were not figments. In short, what does the figment tag really mean?

Just to refresh,
Illusions can be very effective, but it is possible for opponents to see through or otherwise sense the deception by way of Sensing tests. There are two kinds of illusions: figments and true illusions.
Figments are the weakest sort of illusion magic. They can interact with any senses—images, sounds, sensations and more can all be
created by figments. However, figments are obviously illusory, or easily detected as an illusion; any interaction with a figment reveals its
nature. They are typically used to entertain or enhance other actions. No special tests or abilities are needed to sense their status as illusions.
The discussion was how does unseen voices work as a deception, if they are figments and everybody who hears them realized that they are fake.

The problem I find is that most figment spells don't seem to work as figments. Only one of them seem to fit the "obviously illusory" category, and only one seems to fit the "easily detected as an illusion" category. The other three seem to be a third category of "not obviously illusory, but almost impossible to interact with or have other weird rules for how they are seen through". Despite the paragraph above saying "No special tests or abilities are needed to sense their status as illusions", several of the spells have clearly stated special tests to end the spell effects. I find the whole thing very confusing and contradictory.

There are only 5 figments in the spell list, Lets look at the list.

Cloak: so this one works, more or less. My understanding is that you get +3 to your stealth tests, until you are seen, but once seen you loose the bonus. The target does not have to "sense" the spell, just to succeed in rolling higher than your Stealthy Stride (which will often, but not always be lower than a first circle sensing test difficulty number). After which point the effect is seen as "obviously illusory" and the effect goes away.
Disaster, I don't see this working as a figment. Reading the text of the spell, it can clearly distract somebody for up to Rank Rounds. So it seems to me that it can't be too obviously fake. The only thing I can think of is that figments are exposed when interacted with, and Disaster creates an effect that seems far away, and it is very hard to interact with a barn burning a mile away. Thus you don't realize the Disaster is a fake until you get closer to the location (or the duration expires - or your attention is drawn to more urgent matters). But the point is that until your attention is returned to closer matters, the disaster does not seem to be obviously a fake.
Fun With Doors: This spell makes perfect sense as a figment to me. You see the doors, they are NOT obviously fake until you try to interact with it such as open it. Then they are revealed to be obviously fake. But the key here is that they are not obviously fake until you touch it. I guess one big consequence of this being a Figment instead of an Illusion is that a master can't use Manipulate Reality to remove the illusion keyword and create or remove real doors (which would have been super cool).
Unseen Voices: This does not make sense to me as a figment at all. It seem to have none of the markers of a figment as defined above. As far as I can tell, this is not meant to be obviously fake. Also it does seem possible to interact with Unseen Voices (one could converse with the voices). And as far as I can tell, the caster can use mimic voice though the spell, and the targets could be fooled by the mimiced voices. How can one be fooled by a mimiced unseen voice if the spell is obviously fake? It makes no sense at all unless the spell is not obviously fake even if interacted with.
Clarion Call: This also makes no sense as a figment at all. A loud voice gives a command. If the test succeeds, you have to obey the command. If you want to resist the command, you need to make a WIL test vs the effect step. If you don't succeed in the WIL test, you have to obey the voice. So how does this work in practice? Can the targets just say "this is an obvious figment so I am going to ignore the voice"? is the case that it is an obvious figment, but they are compelled to obey the voice anyway, even knowing that it is a figment? Or do they not realize it is a figment unless they make their WIL test, and it is the making of the WIL test that makes them realize the voice is a figment and can be ignored? I don't understand this at all! But the effect of having to obey the voice seems a very real effect.

So like I said, Clarion Call and all the other spells, what makes these spells figments? Is the voice a figment but the compulsion is real? Why do these spells have a figment tag? In what ways would the spells be, or behave differently if they did not have the figment tag? Should one ignore the figment tag if it seems to contradict the spell text? Or ignore the spell text if it seems to contradict the figment tag?

Slimcreeper
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Joined:Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:44 pm

Re: Figments

Post by Slimcreeper » Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:10 pm

I agree with your analysis and don't really have much to add, unfortunately. Even Josh said that Fun With Doors was less fun than its name implied.

ragbasti
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Re: Figments

Post by ragbasti » Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:34 am

We read the "obviously an illusion" part less as "the targets KNOWS it was an illusion" but more as something coming from the subconscious.
So once figment are seen through, the person affected has an obvious sense of having been deceived/something being off.
But I'll explain more how I picture things below:
ChrisDDickey wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 9:08 pm
Disaster, I don't see this working as a figment. Reading the text of the spell, it can clearly distract somebody for up to Rank Rounds. So it seems to me that it can't be too obviously fake. The only thing I can think of is that figments are exposed when interacted with, and Disaster creates an effect that seems far away, and it is very hard to interact with a barn burning a mile away. Thus you don't realize the Disaster is a fake until you get closer to the location (or the duration expires - or your attention is drawn to more urgent matters). But the point is that until your attention is returned to closer matters, the disaster does not seem to be obviously a fake.

While the duration is rank rounds, it's also important to not that any action affecting the target will result in them no longer being affected by the spell. So in combat the duration is until the end of the next round at best.

As for the interaction part, of course you cannot interact with something far away, but I picture the spell as conjuring realistic images of something terrible happening only for it to disappear the moment the spell ends.
We use the imagery of a mirage dispersing or the disaster's image shattering into mirror shards that then fall and fade out of the sky.
Everyone seeing this will know it wasn't real but until then (or until they get blasted by the archer) it's a real disaster to them.
ChrisDDickey wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 9:08 pm

Unseen Voices: This does not make sense to me as a figment at all. It seem to have none of the markers of a figment as defined above. As far as I can tell, this is not meant to be obviously fake. Also it does seem possible to interact with Unseen Voices (one could converse with the voices). And as far as I can tell, the caster can use mimic voice though the spell, and the targets could be fooled by the mimiced voices. How can one be fooled by a mimiced unseen voice if the spell is obviously fake? It makes no sense at all unless the spell is not obviously fake even if interacted with.

The spell is obviously fake once you investigate and see that there was nobody there or have a few minutes (rank+5 rounds) to think about it.

The way we handle it is that the voices seem real until somebody goes to where they come from and sees that they have been deceived OR once the spell ends, a feeling in the back of their head will tell them that something wasn't right. This will usually result in some kind of investigation after but it probably bought the group some important time.

Scenario, getting past soldiers guarding a gate:
Let's say the illusionist mimics the voice to give them a command from their superior. The soldiers will probably follow it, like a "go over there and check on it", making them leave their post.
Once their return, one of them might realise that their superior currently has a meeting at the other end of the castle OR that their superior never issues orders that way, using differently language or whatever.
Suddenly something feels wrong. The figment shatters and the soldiers will try to investigate.
ChrisDDickey wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 9:08 pm
Clarion Call: This also makes no sense as a figment at all. A loud voice gives a command. If the test succeeds, you have to obey the command. If you want to resist the command, you need to make a WIL test vs the effect step. If you don't succeed in the WIL test, you have to obey the voice. So how does this work in practice? Can the targets just say "this is an obvious figment so I am going to ignore the voice"? is the case that it is an obvious figment, but they are compelled to obey the voice anyway, even knowing that it is a figment? Or do they not realize it is a figment unless they make their WIL test, and it is the making of the WIL test that makes them realize the voice is a figment and can be ignored? I don't understand this at all! But the effect of having to obey the voice seems a very real effect.
If they succeed in their WIL test, they will immediately know that something was off, otherwise that sense will come to them once the spell ends.
It's not that they will not follow the command because the spell is tagged as a figment, the target has no concept whatsoever what figment even are (most likely).
It's that once the spell ends (either duration or successful WIL) they will KNOW that their actions just now weren't their own.

Let's use the soldier thing again:
Illusionist uses this spel, commanding the two soldiers to just open the door for the group and let them through.
The soldiers comply but once the spell is over, we cut to the cartoon scene of two confused guards giving each other a surprised look after letting Bugs Bunny pass through in a terrible disguise and going into full alarm mode.
The figment works but once it passes the target knows exactly that whatever the spell made them do wasn't their own actions.

ChrisDDickey
Posts:1011
Joined:Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:02 pm

Re: Figments

Post by ChrisDDickey » Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:26 am

OK, I guess the above makes sense.
If I understand it, in this interpretation the big difference in figments is not so much what happens during the spell, but that after a figment is over with, the target always figures out that they had been fooled. Under that interpretation "Trust" ought to be a figment as well, since the "always realize has been fooled" is baked into that spell.

ragbasti
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Joined:Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:09 pm

Re: Figments

Post by ragbasti » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:15 am

I'm not sure, in my interpretation Figments need to have some sort of sensory component to qualify as such, which the Trust spell doesn't really have.
Nothing to see, hear, or otherwise perceive.
But it's certainly similar to my interpretation of the Clarion Call spell, but offers a much longer duration for different purposes, imo.

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