All in all I think the "goal" of fighting a Horror should not primarily be based on Talents. Many Horrors are derived as "negative aspects" of humanity, e.g. Tempter, Giftbringer and some such. Bloatforms can be understood as symptoms of greed / gloating habits and some such. So in my experience, fighting against Horrors was much cooler in trying to outwit and outmaneuver them. Many of these Horrors are centuries old and have devastated many Kaers through guile and wit. It should thus be more important to focus on this aspect when designing an encounter than just to go to its location and hit it hard with your dice
. Playing this way makes the game much more rewarding and worthwhile in my perception and experience.Statistics:Posted by DunKalar — Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:29 pm
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DunKalar wrote: ↑
Gauntlets get Spirit Strike at warden for this very purpose. Without it they can't attack astral beingsThu Jul 08, 2021 9:22 pm
You can assume that all Adepts have an astral pattern - not just an echo. So even a Gauntlet or Beastmaster can hit an Astral being with their Claws or Fists. The same Magic that allows you to hit Astral Targets protects you from not getting infected with all sort of stuff from touching several kinds of Horrors or their constructs. Otherwise a discipline like the Gauntlet, who is described as being the fist of the elements to free the world of Horrors would be pretty shite at doing their job because they could neither hit an astral Horror that infects the area, nor can they damage a Horror that has some sort of infectious hide without getting a load of payback on top of normal effects all melee like Warriors have to swallow. Statistics:Posted by sigfriedmcwild — Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:25 am
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DunKalar wrote: ↑
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I suggest to apply the rules for immateriality that are noted with some Horrors and their Constructs
...
You can argue that even a spell like Earth Dart has some form of structure that has been woven from Threads and could thus in some way interact with an Astral Being
These would be an interesting variant that some GMs might like to explore in their own games, but such a concept should not be confused with the official rules as written. Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:22 pm
You can assume that all Adepts have an astral pattern - not just an echo. So even a Gauntlet or Beastmaster can hit an Astral being with their Claws or Fists....
I suggest to apply the rules for immateriality that are noted with some Horrors and their Constructs
...
You can argue that even a spell like Earth Dart has some form of structure that has been woven from Threads and could thus in some way interact with an Astral Being
No Discipline is meant to be good at every situation. I see zero reason why "the fist of the elements" would be capable of extending its powers into a plane of existence which is notable for its complete and utter lack of any elements. Gauntlets are great against any horror that they can get at. Your comment is like saying that of course all Gauntlets must be have an innate ability to fly to enable them to attack flying horrors. I have often wished that Horror Stalkers had a way to attack Astral Horrors less drastic than the Netherwalk Talent (only available at rank 9+ and very dangerous).
Most Horrors are not Threads. Most Horrors move around much more than your average thread does. Threadsight is not a practical way to see/fight horrors. The books do have a throwaway line or two about Astral Projection. Astral Projection does not create a Gate. Creating a gate or portal is high level magic.
Nightwists are not purely astral beings. They have a physical nature There is nothing in their descriptions that even hints that they are astral beings. They do not have any of the markers of astral beings (the Astral Nature or Displace powers)
On a quick, non-conclusive search, I only found one horror (Bloodshaper) that was primarily Astral, and it needed to create a physical form in order to do mischief. There are several that can Displace or are Duel Natured, but my impression is that Displace is mostly an approach and a retreating tactic, making those horrors very hard to finish off. But in order to do bad stuff, they need to Displace back to the Physical plane and become venerable to physical attacks again.
Once again, I wish that more Disciplines had more/easier access to Talents that allowed attacks from the Physical to the Astral. But rules as written, they don't.
Statistics:Posted by ChrisDDickey — Fri Jul 09, 2021 2:39 am
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The greatest problem is actually seeing the being, which is the greatest challenge for most Disciplines. Though theoretically everyone can sense Astral Space by using Threadweaving or just Willforcing a Gate to Astral Space, you do not want to do the latter due to the Astral Feedback and corruption. You want to have your Astral Sense or Astral Sight for this.
If pure astral beings could not interact with physical beings, Horror Constructs like Nightwists would be utterly useless since they could corrupt no one - but they can and they deal out nightmares to feed on aplenty. So a certain interaction is there; these Constructs just cannot use their strength to use a rock or open a door. I think that is the important way of approaching this discussion. They can dish out a lot of nasty Horror-Stuff on Namegivers, although these Namegivers are no Adepts and thus not really dual natured. But these Horrors cannot swing your sword for you or throw you out of the window. They need to use Manifest as a power to do the latter two sample activities.
I suggest to apply the rules for immateriality that are noted with some Horrors and their Constructs like Mournguards: Physical Attacks need two additional attacks to hit the target. These rules do not fully make your group of e.g. Scout - Warrior - Elementalist - Troubadour helpless against a Kreescra or similar foes which would otherwise be the case. You can argue that even a spell like Earth Dart has some form of structure that has been woven from Threads and could thus in some way interact with an Astral Being. Just ignore the physical Armor reduction effect and demand those two additional successes to hit. That has proven quite well in my campaigns to let your players have a chance but make it tough to go in unprepared without some tricks up their sleves.
Still, Horrors - especially those that run around in Astral Space - are meant to be the enduring problem of the world. And they will get you the moment, where you are not vigilant (e.g. while you are sleeping). That is Earthdawn and how it is intended to be. It forces your players to roleplay and be creative about getting these foes - you cannot just solve it by throwing sufficient numbers of dice at your GM. That's what makes this game so lovely
.Statistics:Posted by DunKalar — Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:22 pm
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Since most spells can only be directed at targets the magician can see, magicians
must possess some sort of astral sight ability to cast spells at targets in astral space.
If a magician successfully uses Astral Sight, he may target astral beings with any spell
that can affect them. As a general rule, spells resisted with Mystic Armor affect astral
beings. Spells resisted by Physical Armor cannot be used by a caster in the physical
world against targets in astral space. For example, a Wizard using Astral Sight could
cast a Mind Dagger spell at a spirit in astral space, but he could not cast a Flame Flash
spell on the spirit. The effect of Flame Flash is physical—it will not affect the immaterial spirit.
Magicians in astral space may cast spells against astral targets as if both the caster and the target were in the physical world. Magicians in astral space, however, cannot cast spells at targets in the physical world. See Astral Space, p. 204, for more information on astral sensing and the interactions between the astral and physical realms.
Statistics:Posted by Moonsong — Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:32 pm
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Belenus wrote: ↑
As described in "True to Form" on p. 297 f. in the Players Guide, each living/magical thing has a structure as well. And this structure exists in the astral realm, normally being part of the imprint.
And this structure (sometimes called pattern as well) can be "altered" by astral beings, which will effect the physical body as well.
Now you could start an additional discussion what "altered" means.. I see it like this:
It exists in the astral plane, can be interacted with and therefore it is quite easy to destroy (same as spirits are nothing else than a living structure in the astral plane).
What is far more difficult is to modify the structure, increasing it's power, change of its form (like reverting the Blood Wood back to being the Wyrm Wood), etc.
The problem we are having is that the "True to Form" section (nor any other section) does not say any of that. Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:10 am
So far you are correct, but!As described in "True to Form" on p. 297 f. in the Players Guide, each living/magical thing has a structure as well. And this structure exists in the astral realm, normally being part of the imprint.
And this structure (sometimes called pattern as well) can be "altered" by astral beings, which will effect the physical body as well.
Now you could start an additional discussion what "altered" means.. I see it like this:
It exists in the astral plane, can be interacted with and therefore it is quite easy to destroy (same as spirits are nothing else than a living structure in the astral plane).
What is far more difficult is to modify the structure, increasing it's power, change of its form (like reverting the Blood Wood back to being the Wyrm Wood), etc.
It says (in the previous section) "Namegivers have True Patterns" and in True to Form it says "A living thing’s astral imprint reflects its pattern". It does not say (or even imply) "And this structure exists in the astral realm, normally being part of the imprint." It does not say that. Anywhere.
It does not say that "this structure (sometimes called pattern as well) can be 'altered' by astral beings, which will effect the physical body as well." It says that a namegivers pattern can be altered by "extremely powerful magic". It does not say or even imply that this alteration is done by astral beings or on the astral plane. It just says altering the pattern directly requires "extremely powerful magic".
This whole topic can be clarified by closely reading sections of the players guild. Starting on page 204, the whole Astral Space section is worth re-reading for this discussion. The subsections "The Nature of Astral Space" and "The Astral Landscape" are worth reviewing but are not strictly necessary to this discussion. The one quote I will bother with is "everything in the physical world possesses an astral imprint that reflects the physical object’s pattern.", which indicates that a physical objects pattern exists in the physical world, and the astral imprint is merely a reflection of that.
The section "Astral and Physical Forms" (page 206) is vital to understand. It starts with the words "All living things and inanimate objects exist in either astral or physical form. " and slowly walks the reader through physical forms, astral forms, how they are separate and how hard for one to interact with the other. And the concept that some very exceptionally powerful and difficult to kill horrors are duel-natured, with both physical and astral forms that can affect ether astral or physical space. When I started collecting quotes to debunk the idea that a physical being had their pattern on the Astral plane, I realized that I was getting ready to quote about 80% of the text in this section. So please, re-read this section. It will clarify that physical beings exist solely upon the physical plane. The Astral Imprint is merely a reflection. And if you ever do meet a namegiver on the physical plane that has an "Astral Structure" as well, then call your friendly neighborhood Horror Stalker, because it is a duel-natured Horror.
Also vital to understanding of this subject is "Astral Imprints" on the next page. It has a lot of good information, including that the Imprints of living beings have "Substance" on the astral plane, and astral beings may not pass through them. It clarifies that the Imprint, Aura's, and Patterns of physical beings are reflections of things in the physical plane, even if Aura's and Patterns are not normally visible on the physical plane. They are reflections of things on the physical plane, visible (but not physically, or even astrally present) on the astral plane. Don't get confused by the statements that Astral beings also have bodies, auras and patterns upon the Astral Plane.
The "True to Form" section (next page) is also vital. It says that "A living thing’s astral imprint reflects its pattern". Note that it says "reflects its pattern", not "is" or "contains its pattern". It absolutely positively does not say "It exists in the astral plane, can be interacted with and therefore it is quite easy to destroy". Instead it says "Altering the pattern of a living thing in this way requires extremely powerful magic". It does not say it would be easier to alter it from the Astral plane.
So to sum up my positions:
A namegivers pattern is not an "astral structure", and in fact does not exist on the astral realm at all, its reflection is merely visible there.
Beings on the physical plane can't normally interact with creatures on other planes, though the developers have given us at least three ways that they may do so.
Beings on the astral plane can't normally interact with creatures on the physical plane. Manifesting is one way, and there are statements that "magic spells or powers" might provide other ways, however Devs have not specified any of these magic spells or powers. GMs are free to come up with their own, but there is no official way except Manifest.
Statistics:Posted by ChrisDDickey — Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:44 am
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So this might work aswell to attack someones structure.
(In ED2 it was even described that the astral imprint of ones body is already strong enough to attack an astral being with it just using unarmed combat. Same with magical weapons or magical enhanced/influenced weapons/arrows. Guess this also still works?)
Statistics:Posted by Belenus — Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:14 am
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This is the "echo" you are talking about.
Everything done to the structure or physical form of the living being will effect the imprint, but not in the other direction (what must be somewhat annoying to astral beings, since this astral imprint is strong enough to be an impenetrable object to the astral being and therefore can somewhat interact with it, while the astral being can't
)So far you are correct, but!
As described in "True to Form" on p. 297 f. in the Players Guide, each living/magical thing has a structure as well. And this structure exists in the astral realm, normally being part of the imprint.
And this structure (sometimes called pattern as well) can be "altered" by astral beings, which will effect the physical body as well.
Now you could start an additional discussion what "altered" means.. I see it like this:
It exists in the astral plane, can be interacted with and therefore it is quite easy to destroy (same as spirits are nothing else than a living structure in the astral plane).
What is far more difficult is to modify the structure, increasing it's power, change of its form (like reverting the Blood Wood back to being the Wyrm Wood), etc.
Statistics:Posted by Belenus — Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:10 am
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Statistics:Posted by ChrisDDickey — Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:39 am
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ChrisDDickey wrote: ↑
Where is this less an assumption than the one I did? I actually searched the Players Guide and Gamemasters Guide just now for the word "echo" and it never was used once in this context. And I can't remember reading anything like this in other words. So again: It's just a personal rule which fits to the own idea of how the world is working. Which I can understand is clearly clashing with my view. But there is not a single text in the books (or we just haven't found them yet), which say you or me are right or even both are wrong.Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:57 pm
I believe a physical persons pattern is more on the physical plane that the astral plane. Yes, a pattern can't be seen or touched physically, but that does not mean that it is Astral, it is just simply most easily viewed via its astral echo. A being on the Astral Plane will have its pattern on the Astral Plane, but not so a being on the Physical Plane.Actually, what I found was the word echo in the context of Naming / True patterns:
And following this description, an echo would even be enough to interact with the True Pattern.PG p.214 wrote:A place is sometimes Named in honor of a powerful or notable individual. Such Naming is discouraged, as it can build an echo of the individual’s True Pattern into the True Pattern of the place. Skilled magicians can use this association to their advantage.
Statistics:Posted by Belenus — Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:13 pm
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Belenus wrote: ↑
This explanation is making some extraordinarily dubious assumptions which I feel are plain old wrong. Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:25 pm
Attacking with an astral spell like mind dagger is not affecting the physical realm. It's targeting the astral structure (it's going against the mystical and not the physical armor).First, is that a person has some sort of "astral structure", and that this "astral structure" can be attacked on the astral plane.
Name-givers are NOT duel natured beings. They are Physical beings. They have some things, such as aura's and patterns that are visible in astral space, but I have seen nothing whatsoever to hint that they are in any way, shape, or form naturally present on the astral plane. I am going to say that again, they are said to be observable on Astral, not present on Astral.
I believe a physical persons pattern is more on the physical plane that the astral plane. Yes, a pattern can't be seen or touched physically, but that does not mean that it is Astral, it is just simply most easily viewed via its astral echo. A being on the Astral Plane will have its pattern on the Astral Plane, but not so a being on the Physical Plane.
Nether does a spells attacking against mystic armor mean that it is Attacking on the Astral Plane.
A spell that is reduced by MA often works by attacking the targets Pattern. Such a spell works when it is cast upon a target on the Physical Plane. It also works when cast upon a target in Astral Plane. It is a logical fallacy to presume that this means that a name-givers pattern is solely present in Astral Space. I believe this is incorrect and that physical beings pattern is solely present in the physical world, with merely its echo visible in Astral Space.
Even though a physical beings pattern is visible in astral space, doing anything to the echo that is visible will do nothing, the pattern itself must be attacked in order to accomplish any damage. I don't believe any purely astral force can affect it at all unless the force can be projected into the physical plane where the pattern actually is. Again, I believe such across planes projection is possible, just rare. It requires special spells, powers, or Talents, and is not available to every entity that can cast a mind-dagger.
True, there are a lot of possible correct answers.Belenus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:25 pmAs Sushy already wrote: There are a damn lot of possible correct answers out there.
I think that all spells affecting the astral structure or which are aimed at the mystic armor should be possible to cast from the astral plane to targets in the physical world and vice versa.
But I do believe that a lot of those possible answer, such as positing that creatures on the Physical World have an Astral Structure on the Astral Plane that can be attacked on that plane, seems like it is adding an awful lot to the published word.
Statistics:Posted by ChrisDDickey — Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:57 pm
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BUT also: Exactly. This is the argue which comes: "Astral Spell are not effecting on the physical space they are on the astral site."
Still for me an interpreation which is possible and don't explain/solve this issue for my discussions I have.
Statistics:Posted by Sushy — Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:53 pm
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