Spellcasting at +1 target and how it relates to steel thought, dispel magic and differs from AoE spells

[ChrisDDickey]

I know that many of the topics I am raising here have been covered before separately, but I am trying to come up with a universal theory of spell-casting. One set of guidelines that apply in all similar situations. I think that some of my understandings differ from what others have stated.

I would appreciate any comments or corrections to any of the below theorem and cases.
Especially on case 2-2, 4-3, question #4 and any cases where people disagree with my results.

Case - Control: A single target spell. Targets MD.
If the caster fails to hit the targets MD: The spell flops. IE: for Earth darts, the handful of dirt does not turn crystalline nor hit the target. It just falls to the ground at the spell-casters feet, who shuffles his feet in embarrassment.
Assuming the caster does hit the targets MD:
If the target wishes to Steel Thought it, he can. If the target is successful in his Steel Thought test, the spell has no affect upon him.
Such spells can be dispelled by following the dispel magic rules.

Theorem #1
Steel Thought does not stop the spell from happening. It merely stops the effect from affecting the target.

Case #1:
In the case of Earth Darts, a crystalline dart would still form, and might still strike the target. However on a successful Steel Thought test, it would do no damage to ether the target, nor his armor.

Theorem #2
A spell is cast as one unit. It always has only one spell-casting test, one level of success, and unless specified differently, only one effect test.

Case #2-1
Earth Darts is cast with one extra thread which gives it one extra target. One spell-casting test is rolled. Let us say both targets have identical MD and it hits that MD with no extra successes. One effect test is rolled and that damage is applied to both targets, and both targets armor is damaged.

Case #2-2
Same as 2-1 except that the targets have very different MD.
There are different ways this could be handled.
(A) In the past I have always handled this in a matter similar to AoE spells, the target number for the Spells is the highest MD of the targets. If that is missed, the whole spell fails. The level of success for everybody is based upon this highest DM.
(B) However I can find nothing anywhere that states that the spell, having missed the highest MD, does not still affect the lower MD target(s). Once again, this is not an actual AoE spell where the spell description says it targets the highest MD in an area. This is a spell that targets the MD of the target, and that has two (or more) targets. Just because it missed one, does not mean it has to miss the other. So in this case we can say it misses the first target, but hits the 2nd.
(C) Also, Other than on this forum, looking only at the RaW, I can't find anything that says that Theorem #2 is true, and the spell can't just have two levels of success: you hit target A with one success, and target B with two successes.
So how would people handle this, and what options does the caster have?

Theorem #3
Steel Thought does not stop the spell from happening. It merely stops the effect from affecting the target. It does NOT stop any other effects, including stopping the spell from affecting any other targets.

Case #3
Same as Case #2-2 except that both targets are hit with varying levels of success. One of the targets (it does not matter if it is the high MD or the low MD one) makes and succeeds in a Steel Thought test. He is unaffected by the spell. The other is affected exactly as he would have been had his partners not made an ST test, as his partners ST test does not change his situation at all. The Steel Thought test was made after the test for MD, so the ST test does not change the level of success for anybody.


Question #4
Dispel Magic says the dispeller must be within Rank x 2 yards of the target effect. For Area Effect spells and spells with +1 target, what does that mean? Does that mean all targets? Ether target? For AoE does that mean within range of any of the effected area or the center of the area?
I assume it is not all of the area, since many spells and talents have areas that are much bigger than the range of Dispel Magic.

Theorem #4
Dispel Magic dispels all of a single spell that is within range. If only part of the spells effect is within range, it only dispels that part that is within range.

Case 4-1:
"Slow" has been cast once with an additional target upon Able and Baker. Assuming both are within Rank x 2 range of the dispeller, the dispeller could as one standard action dispel the spell upon both Able and Baker. If Baker were not within range of the dispelling, the dispeller could dispel that portion of the casting upon Able, leaving Baker affected by his half of the spell.
Alternative: Since 1/2 of the "target effect" is within range of the dispelling, it could be argued that the whole spell (on both able and baker) could be dispelled, even though Baker was out of normal dispelling range).

Case 4-2
As 4-1 except that Slow was also cast upon Charlie. But Charlie was targeted in a separate casting. Even if all three are within range of the dispeller, it would take a 2nd Standard Action to dispell the spell on Charlie. There were two castings, there must be two dispellings, even if both castings were of the same spell.

Case 4-3
A magician has cast "Icy Surface" by touching a specific spot, and having ice grow away from that spot.
Another magician is within dispelling range of much of the Icy Surface, but not within range of the spot touched.
(A) If he can get within dispel range of the spot touched, he can dispel all of the spell.
(B) If he can't get within range of the spot touched, I think he can still dispel all the parts of the icy surface within his dispel range.
(C) How about "Uneven Ground" that has a 10 yard radius from the caster? If the dispeller can get within dispel range of the caster, he can certainly dispell the whole effect, but can he just dispel the (for example) eastern edge of the effect?

Theorem #5
Steel Thought does not do anything when you enter the area of an Area of Effect spell that has already been established.

Case #5
A Blizzard Sphere has already been successfully cast upon a choke-point. Anybody entering the Blizzard Sphere AoE will be affected by it. It does not matter what their MD is, or if it is higher than that of anybody who was present when the BS was cast. MDs are not consulted. Since the already established spell is not targeting the MD of people entering the Sphere, people entering the Sphere do not get to make Steel Thought rolls.

Theorem #6
Anybody who is in the AoE of a spell as it is being cast, can make a Steel Thought roll to avoid the effects of the spell for at least the first round (and possibly more depending upon interpretation).

I know that there has been a lot of discussion of this already.
Supporting quotes.

makes a Spellcasting test against the highest Mystic Defense among all targets in the area of effect.

The adept resists magical abilities that target his Mystic Defense. Any time he is targeted by such an ability

The most pedantic interpretation should allow the person with the highest MD to make a Steel Thought test. A reasonable interpretation would be that all targets can. They are targets, their MD was checked.

Case #6
A Blizzard Sphere is cast upon an area with several characters. Their highest MD is found, and the number of successes is determined. Some characters have Steel Thought and elect to use it. One character succeeds in his ST test. All other characters suffer the effects of the spell and take damage. He does not suffer any of the effects of the spell at this time.

Theorem #7
Somebody whose Steel Thought kept him from suffering the first round damage of an AoE spell with duration, has until the end of his next action to get out of the AoE to avoid taking ongoing effects, otherwise, he suffers as if he had entered the AoE during that turn.

This is a bit tricky.

If successful, he reinforces his will, preventing the ability from affecting him

Argument could be made that this immunity lasts for the duration of the spell, but I think that taking both Theorem 5 and Theorem 6 together that it makes more sense for the immunity to last only for the round the effect forms. But I can see several reasonable interpretations of this.

[Mataxes]

I'm not going to address point-by-point here (don't have time), but here's the intention (and official clarifications):

When using extra threads to add an additional target (or targets) you only make a single Spellcasting test, as you do with AoE spells*. If the test doesn't succeed against the highest MD of the target(s), the spell does not go off. It is all or nothing.

Once a spell is successful, individuals may use Steel Thought, but it only protects them**, it does not prevent the spell from affecting other targets.

* There may be specific AoE spells that break this. I'm at my day gig and don't have access to my reference materials.
** Barring knacks or other special abilities that might come into play.

[Dougansf]

I'm curious to learn about the way Dispel Magic works against AoE spells as well.

For example: Ethereal Darkness. Does Dispel have to target the touched target at the center point, or any part of the darkness?

Also, if Dispelling a person with multiple spells active, do you target only one, or do you dispel all the ones that you beat the TN?

[Mataxes]

I'm curious to learn about the way Dispel Magic works against AoE spells as well.

For example: Ethereal Darkness. Does Dispel have to target the touched target at the center point, or any part of the darkness?

I don't think it matters much? There's no "targeting" test required. As long as they are within range of the effect, which would include anywhere affected by the spell.

Also, if Dispelling a person with multiple spells active, do you target only one, or do you dispel all the ones that you beat the TN?

Only one, and the character attempting the dispel needs to identify which effect they're after (even if they don't know the name -- you could try to dispel the flames on a sword without knowing it's a Flame Weapon spell, for example).

[Telarus]

It really helps to think of spells as "clouds of astral energy which also affect the physical plane as their mana pattern discharges along the astral arc into their target(s)."

[Calamrin]

When using extra threads to add an additional target (or targets) you only make a single Spellcasting test, as you do with AoE spells*. If the test doesn't succeed against the highest MD of the target(s), the spell does not go off. It is all or nothing.

Lightening bolt gives and extra target on extra success ...can you choose not to use it?.....say for example you have scraped in against a powerful wizards bodyguard, have earth staff up that gives extra success....can u choose not to arc it to the wizard as spell will fail?

Another question... im sure its in the book but i cant find it, do you roll 2 sets of damage or 1?

Also say u used desperate spell blood charm , which can give +6 effect step, does that apply to just initial target or anyone effected by a spell?

[Mataxes]

Lightening bolt gives and extra target on extra success ...can you choose not to use it?.....say for example you have scraped in against a powerful wizards bodyguard, have earth staff up that gives extra success....can u choose not to arc it to the wizard as spell will fail?

Sure. Otherwise, you run into a situation where you must cast the spell at the highest MD target which the character doesn't necessarily know.

Another question... im sure its in the book but i cant find it, do you roll 2 sets of damage or 1?

Also say u used desperate spell blood charm , which can give +6 effect step, does that apply to just initial target or anyone effected by a spell?

It depends on the spell? I'm at the day gig and don't have my book handy.

As for the desperate spell question, it should be applied to a single effect test, so it ultimately depends on the spell. If it makes a separate damage test against each target, you would choose which one it applies to. If there is only one effect test, it would affect all targets.

[Calamrin]

Got it i think and thanks Mataxes..

I was refering to spells that can effect additional targets through extra threads or successes, with nothing mentioned about additional rules.

-One test to cast against highest MD (not forced to take additional target)

-One damage roll against them all successes based off highest MD (an effect like desparate spell blood charm +6 effect adds on to this for all additional targets)

Have fun at work...never any rush to reply to any daft questions i pose...i type far too much nonsense)

[The Undying]

@ChrisDDickey

As someone who tried to do similar decomposition and flavor overlays, let me say you're in for a rocky road. You've got a lot of material in your post, but the thing I think I can best weigh in on is on the targeting and meta-physics therein.

Spells aren’t like rocks thrown blindly in the dark, hoping for a hit; spells travel in an astral arc between the caster and the target. The caster can only create that arc if he can see (or otherwise sense) the target. Without the proper astral arc, the spell veers harmlessly into astral space.

I think this goes to the heart of things, from a single target perspective. Steel Thought likely prevents that arc from either fully forming or holding solid - but, as flavor and an interpretation, it's really an individual/table decision (where it matters). Any side effect of that I think really comes down to personal preference, especially when it comes to physical manifestation (although no item should have a mechanical impact):

• no manifestation (that Earth Dart just looks like a hilarious throw of dirt)
• partial manifestation (the Dart forms, but on its way, it breaks apart, maybe showering the target with some low velocity dirt)
• full manifestation (the Dart forms but either visible misses or still strikes the target but just breaks into its original dirt form with no actual force of impact)

For me, it's hard to get a good flavor perspective on the clarified AoE rules (that doesn't make them BAD, just difficult to rationalize as something other than a system). Someone in the AoE when the spell/effect is manifesting can avoid it via Steel Thought, but someone entering after the spell/effect lands cannot. My go-to thought flavor-wise would be that Steel Thought creates kind of an buffer around the creature's pattern that prevents the magical energies from actually affecting them ... but that doesn't work at first brush because that should carry over to someone entering. You can twist the flavor to make it work, the twists just start to show for me (i.e., this is obviously this way to fit the mechanics).

Anyways, all just flavor musings and conjecture, take from it what you please as none of it is in any way actually rules or canon. Hope it helps.

[Mataxes]

I just took a look and based on my reading of the spell, there is only one Effect test, so all targets would take the same damage.

Edit: As an addendum, I would say that if you get extra targets as the result of bonus successes on a spell (like Lightning Bolt), and you choose an additional target whose MD ends up being higher than the result, it doesn't retroactively cancel the success on the primary target. It just ends up not working on the secondary target.

For example, you decide the primary target is the bodyguard and roll a 14, scoring an extra success. You select the additional target, who happens to have a MD of 15. You still hit the bodyguard -- the spell isn't retroactively canceled. The primary target still suffers the damage.