Pattern Items and True Patterns?

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Mataxes
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Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by Mataxes » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:57 pm

Jaracove wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:14 pm
Ok, I've been revisiting this question. The underlined is key to what I need to know. Could someone check the following is correct please?

True Pattern: Bob the Swordsman
True Pattern: Bob's sword "Giselle"
Pattern Item: Giselle's scabbard
1) Yes.
2) Assuming "Giselle" is a traditional thread item, yes.
3) Assuming the scabbard is not a traditional thread item, yes.
Pattern items do not have True Patterns of their own

A Thread/Magic item is its own True Pattern
Yes to both.
Test Knowledge = Questions
Research Knowledge = Answers
Key Knowledge = Questions and Answers
Yes.
Page 229: "By researching the history and activities of a True Pattern, it is possible to obtain its Research Knowledges."

Do you need a Pattern Item to do this research? I ask because in that sentence seems to imply you do not. You certainly can use a Pattern Item (and it's the most common way), but is the above sentence implying you don't always need one to research a True Pattern?
Technically, you don't. It's just a lot harder.

If you get the pattern item, you can use Item History to learn the Test Knowledge, which can guide your research. Since you know the question, it's a lot easier to find the answer.

If you don't have the pattern item, you don't have any way of learning the question. You can do research, and make an educated guess about what might be the correct answer. But until you actually obtain the pattern item and use Item History to confirm the question, the answer (even if correct) doesn't do you any good.

This kind of leads into your follow-up question.
This is what's throwing me, this is why I said in my first post that it seems like there are two ways of doing this (with a Pattern Item and without).

Finally, if you do not need a Pattern Item to research a True Pattern, why bother with Pattern Items at all, what added bonus do they give?
You can't do anything with the knowledge on its own. It's like having a key, but no lock. Without the pattern item, you can't confirm you're even answering the right question.

Also, the pattern item is required as a representation of the True Pattern to which you are tying, and a symbol of the associated knowledge. If you don't have the item, you can't get any bonus at all.

===

There are two methods, but it's more like there are two directions from which you can approach it.

(A) Question first.
(B) Answer first.

You still need both pieces. The pattern item lets you learn the question. (And, ultimately, use the power the answer unlocks.)

Is that any clearer?
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Jaracove
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Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by Jaracove » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:21 pm

It's much clearer now

Thanks all very much :)

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Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by Jaracove » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:36 pm

I've just read how you don't need a pattern item to research a True Pattern

and

Without a pattern item you can't be sure you're even asking the right question.

This seems contradictory

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etherial
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Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by etherial » Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:12 pm

Jaracove wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:36 pm
I've just read how you don't need a pattern item to research a True Pattern

and

Without a pattern item you can't be sure you're even asking the right question.

This seems contradictory
Researching, in its simplest form, is attempting to gain knowledge. You won't know which bit of knowledge is useful until you have an application, like knowing which things you've learned are Research Knowledges for the Pattern Item. But you can still learn things about the True Pattern without the Pattern Item.

It's an established plot point in the setting that Thera collected all of Barsaive's Pattern Items as a means to control the unruly Province. These Pattern Items have gone missing since the Scourge - presumably some of them are in Parlainth somewhere. Studying Barsaive's History might help you identify what things are Pattern Items for the Province, and you might even stumble upon the Research Knowledge for some of them, but you won't know they're the Research Knowledge unless you have the Pattern Items in hand to Item History.

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The Undying
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Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by The Undying » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:24 am

I think I've lost sight of what you are trying to do since you're talking about two very related but separate things. Are you asking about (a) weaving threads to Thread Items, or (b) weaving threads to non Thread Items? Both technically have True Patterns, both involve the whole Key Knowledge stuff, they're different enough that trying to talk about both at the same time can be confusing.

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Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by Jaracove » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:21 am

I now think I know what's been confusing me. What confused me was there are two ways of researching a True Pattern - but I did not realise the difference between the two.

Mundane Research (without a Pattern Item)
Conducting research without a Pattern Item might get you the required knowledge, but you can’t do anything with that knowledge.

Magical Research (with a Pattern Item)
Conducting research with a Pattern Item is easier (it tells you exactly what you need to research) and it enables you to act magically with/against the True Pattern being researched.

Is that basically it?

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The Undying
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Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by The Undying » Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:25 am

My follow on question would be "why are you researching a True Pattern?"

I see one of two things: (1) you want some kind of power to aide or harm the True Pattern, or (2) you have a Pattern Item and want to use it. As far as I'm concerned, 2 can occur without 1, but 1 naturally leads to 2. If you want to directly aide or harm the True Pattern through magically means, you mostly need one of its Pattern Items. So, really, your efforts of research in 1 (whether magical or mundane) are basically to find a Pattern Item, and then once you have it, you're at 2.

"Researching a True Pattern" without an intent to find a Pattern Item to leverage, or to leverage a Pattern Item you have, is just like research something/someone in the real world. You research to find strengths/weaknesses, friends/enemies, mistakes to right/exploit, etc. Sometimes, magic can be brought to bear on those things (both the research and the resulting action), but you aren't magically affecting the True Pattern itself.

So, again, why are you researching. There's lots of things you can find that can be brought to bare for the benefit or detriment or a True Pattern, but use of magic to directly enhance it or to gain power to directly work against it is a specific thing that requires a Pattern Item.
Last edited by The Undying on Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jaracove
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Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by Jaracove » Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:32 am

The Undying wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:25 am
My follow on question would be "why are you researching a True Pattern?"

I see one of two things: (1) you want some kind of power to aide or harm the True Pattern, or (2) you have a Pattern Item and want to use it. As far as I'm concerned, 2 can occur without 1, but 1 naturally leads to 2. If you want to directly aide or harm the True Pattern through magically means, you mostly need one of its Pattern Items. So, really, your efforts of research in 1 (whether magical or mundane) are basically to find a Pattern Item, and then once you have it, you're at 2.

"Researching a True Pattern" without an intent to find a Pattern Item to leverage, or to leverage a Pattern Item you have, is just like research something/someone in the real world. You research to find strengths/weaknesses, friends/enemies, mistakes to right/exploit, etc. Sometimes, magic can be brought to bear on those things (both the research and the resulting action), but you aren't magically affecting the True Pattern itself.
Your last paragraph explains neatly the confusion I was having.

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The Undying
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Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by The Undying » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:24 pm

Awesome.

Many/most "True Patterns" you're going to come across have a physical analog. So, 99+% of the time, you aren't trying to, say, protect the True Pattern Jaracove, you're trying to protect the physical entity Jaracove. If I wanna protect Jaracove, I can:

- Do entirely mundane things. Hide you somewhere. Ask around (a kind of research) to find someone who could hide you. Hunt down (a kind of research) the person that swore to hurt/kill you. All these thing serve to protect the True Pattern Jaracove, but they do nothing to the True Pattern, just the physical form.

- Do magical things. Cast Air Armor so you're less likely to get hurt. Observe you (a kind of research) to find out ways I could train you to become an Adept (assuming you weren't one). Swear a Blood Oath (ultimately, this can be considered magical) to preotect you, which could provide a very minor bump to my action tests when done to protect you. These again (except MAYBE the latter), serve to protect the True Pattern Jaracove but only because they protect the physical Jaracove, they do nothing to the True Pattern.

- use a Pattern Item. With a Pattern Item, I could weave thread(s) to increase your Durability, increase your Physical Defense, etc, etc. but I need that Pattern Item. First we need one (although you could probably make a Major one for this purpose, if you haven't made one before). NOW we get into the Thread magic, Key/Test/Researh Knowledge stuff, and so forth. This is actually affecting the True Pattern Jaracove, but it needs a conduit (the Pattern Item).

By the way, I'm crossing my fingers here and hoping I'm not wrong. :D Mataxes has been pretty generous and trying to help you in this, hopefully he'll come along and either smooth out my rough spots or clean up an egregious mess I may have made. :D

Jaracove
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Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by Jaracove » Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:17 pm

It all looks good to me

Thank you

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