Tasting "Inspire Others"

Discussion on game mastering Earthdawn. May contain spoilers; caution is recommended!
Spader
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Tasting "Inspire Others"

Post by Spader » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:17 pm

WARNING: WHINNING AHEAD
Any GM out there ever tasted Inspire Others by the players?

Rules say it gives +2 per success to EVERY rolls for rank rounds. My players (yes there are two of them) tend to be lucky with it so all the group regularly have like +8 and more to all their rolls on every fight. One time, one of them scored +16. (that time I just called it a day and did not make the fight at all)

Because what this talent do is making my players unstoppable. The only damage I can do is the strain they take for their Avoid Blow and Steel Thought talent, because they always succeed at those rolls.

I know I'm the GM and I can change the rules as I wish and I will surely do it for that Talent. I just needed to vent a bit.

Bonhumm
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Re: Tasting "Inspire Others"

Post by Bonhumm » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:27 am

Ah, uh, ouch!

+16 means 5 extra success on top of the highest Social Defense of the group, that would mean, assuming someone has at least 10 in SD, a roll of 35 which, I admit is not that high.

This seems to have been imported from 3rd edition were the +2 were per success level on the dreaded success table instead of the much simpler current +5 rule. The 'tier' of the success table were, on average, a bit more than 'just' +5 but still, this seems OP indeed and I'm surprised I never had to deal with this yet.

Personally, this is so OP that I would exceptionally rule that the +2 is to be applied to the total of the roll, NOT a +2 steps even thought it does seems clear that the intent is for the bonus to be in Steps.

You seem to imply that you have 2 characters with this talent and that they use it at the same time; although I'm not completely sure, I doubt the same talent effect can be 'stacked' on the characters; only the first or the best effect would apply (I think). Can anyone confirm this?

Am I missing something here as well?

sigfriedmcwild
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Re: Tasting "Inspire Others"

Post by sigfriedmcwild » Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:03 am

Player's Guide p 119 wrote: If a talent has an extended duration, a character can only be affected by a single use of that talent—multiple uses do not stack. If targeted by another use of the same talent, the character is affected by the greater of the two effects, and the lesser one does nothing (the adept still pays any required strain cost).
A couple of other things:

The target of inspire other is "highest sd +1 per additional target" which may or may not make a difference depending how lucky your players are

Also Inspire Others does not allow to self buff, so gank the squishy troubadour and the effect will drop from the others

Belenus
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Re: Tasting "Inspire Others"

Post by Belenus » Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:40 am

Same in my group..
A Troubadour/Nethermancer has this talent. Luckily most of the time she rolls bad and the bonus is low.
But there are some times, where the group gets their +8 and more bonus to all rolls.. No need to say, that this overruns any encounter.
She even used the group pattern and the Blade of Cara Fahd to give this talent a further bonus of +8, so she stops failing this roll.

But to nerf or even remove this talent, while it is the strongest the troubadour has, seems wrong to me.
And just as sigfried wrote, the buff doesn't work for the troubadour himself. So while the whole group becomes passionlike, the troubadour, who already was weak in combat, becomes totally useless for the rest of the fight. So my troubadour player (before becoming a nethermancer in 2nd discipline) used "Inspire Others" and then went into hiding..

ChrisDDickey
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Re: Tasting "Inspire Others"

Post by ChrisDDickey » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:39 pm

I don't think the OP was allowing the Inspire effects to stack. I think that he was saying that with two tries, one or the other of inspiration rolls was usually pretty darn good. Plus, they are inspiring the other other inspirational speaker. So the whole group might be +8 except for the guy who rolled the +8, and he has to make do with the +4 the other guy rolled.


If you were looking to nerf it, making the bonus apply to only one test per character per round would be reasonable.

Or better yet, cap the bonus it can give at Real Ranks (not Effective Ranks). So a character that has 7 real ranks (plus some ranks from thread items, group patters, etc, which help with the roll and the duration, but not the bonus) can apply at most a +7 bonus for having 4 successes.

There will be complaints, but these are reasonable limits. If nerfing the Talent mid-campaign, allow player to move points from group patters etc. to other uses.

Anunnaki
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Re: Tasting "Inspire Others"

Post by Anunnaki » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:18 pm

In ED3, the bonus was +1 per Result Level (so capped at +4, not +8).

Spader
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Re: Tasting "Inspire Others"

Post by Spader » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:32 pm

We're playing with 4th edition rules.

When both my players use that talent, the effects won't stack of course. The group will benefits from the higher effect while each Boatmen will use each other effect roll. Oh yes, they're two Boatmen, so before they roll for it, they give each other a "high five" to grant the other +2 bonus per the Collaborate ability.
If you were looking to nerf it, making the bonus apply to only one test per character per round would be reasonable.
That was my angle to deal with this situation.

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etherial
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Re: Tasting "Inspire Others"

Post by etherial » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:22 pm

Anunnaki wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:18 pm
In ED3, the bonus was +1 per Result Level (so capped at +4, not +8).
We tried that in my ED4 campaign and it was still broken. The Human Swordmaster would Tiger Spring, go first, and give half the party +4 Steps. Then the Wizard/Troubadour would buff him and the other half of the party +4 Steps. The problem, IMNSHO, is not the size of the bonus, but the sheer number of times the bonus applies:

Initiative
Attack
Damage
Avoid Blow

And some of these will get rolled multiple times a round!

My recommended nerf:
Each target gets 1 Karma per Success. These Karma form their own pool and can be spent on any test within Rank hours.

Spader
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Re: Tasting "Inspire Others"

Post by Spader » Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:10 am

One thing I already ruled is the can't decide to target specific characters. It is always the whole group no matter how many they are. Because anything else doesn't make sense.

And no animal/creature can benefit from it, Animal Talk or not.

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etherial
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Re: Tasting "Inspire Others"

Post by etherial » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:05 pm

Spader wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:10 am
One thing I already ruled is the can't decide to target specific characters. It is always the whole group no matter how many they are. Because anything else doesn't make sense.
The only difference that really makes is that the Inspirer with the higher Social Defense needs to go first so that the other Inspirer has a bonus to their Inspire Others Step.

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