Is it just me, or is Invoke Leopard Pounce really strong?

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Sharkforce
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Is it just me, or is Invoke Leopard Pounce really strong?

Post by Sharkforce » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:51 am

so as a rough outline, the spell forces a knockdown check, has damage that scales with extra successes, requires 0 threads, and is first circle.

now, that isn't completely insane; if it were to, say, lose out on the damage scaling with extra successes or required 1 thread, I would think it was a pretty strong spell, perhaps on the high end of what I would think is reasonable for a first circle spell even but not unreasonable; knockdown is a powerful effect, but it isn't guaranteed like the penalties that come from earth darts for example... although it isn't extremely unlikely to work, either.

but it's just that little bit extra that makes me look at it and feel like it's just a touch beyond what is reasonable. I don't get the impression that devastating direct damage spells is supposed to be the Shaman's niche (if anything, I'd guess their niche is supposed to be party-wide buffs). so it feels really odd to me that they would have a direct damage option that is so strong compared to other first circle options (including their own other first circle direct damage option, which also applies a strong debuff with 0 threads required but has no damage scaling from extra successes, and which i also consider to be on the high end of reasonable for first circle).

in fact, when I compare it to, say, the Elementalist spell Elemental Spear (Earth), it looks remarkably similar to me, except that the spear is 3 circles higher, requires a thread, and has longer range (though admittedly it also can share its matrix with the other Elemental Spear spells, which ranges from being worth nothing to being potentially a free extra spell prepared depending on whether the Elementalist was going to keep one of the spear spells regardless). likewise it looks similar to Astral Spear, a first circle Nethermancer spell with similar damage but requires a thread (though Astral Spear also has a *much* longer range),

Is it possible that somewhere in the mix of re-editing things some wires got crossed? perhaps it was supposed to be 1 thread like astral spear, or the extra success levels are only supposed to make the knockdown harder to resist? or is it just that the chance for knockdown is not as good as my instincts are telling me it is, and the spell is not overtuned at all?

ragbasti
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Re: Is it just me, or is Invoke Leopard Pounce really strong?

Post by ragbasti » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:09 am

Yeah, it's really strong 😅

I personally think the spell should require a thread for what it does. Or at least require successes to trigger knockdown

Belenus
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Re: Is it just me, or is Invoke Leopard Pounce really strong?

Post by Belenus » Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:22 pm

Wow, it's even more powerful than read from your description.
The Effect test determines how much damage is inflicted and the Knockdown Difficulty the target must resist.
It's not just, that the spell forces a knockdown test against the damage taken, NO, it is against the effect test itself (and therefor both increased through extra successes..), so even more powerful than Shield Bash :shock:
And with an Enhanced Matrix you can even target two enemies each round :shock: :shock:

Just as mentioned: Compared to other spells or similar effects, this spell is far to powerful.

Sharkforce
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Re: Is it just me, or is Invoke Leopard Pounce really strong?

Post by Sharkforce » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:29 pm

Belenus wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:22 pm
Wow, it's even more powerful than read from your description.
The Effect test determines how much damage is inflicted and the Knockdown Difficulty the target must resist.
It's not just, that the spell forces a knockdown test against the damage taken, NO, it is against the effect test itself (and therefor both increased through extra successes..), so even more powerful than Shield Bash :shock:
And with an Enhanced Matrix you can even target two enemies each round :shock: :shock:

Just as mentioned: Compared to other spells or similar effects, this spell is far to powerful.
yup. armour doesn't even help against it. I didn't want to quote too many details though, just enough to bring attention to why I was worried =S

good to know that it's not just me. I'd been looking at it for some time as I was making a character for the west marches campaign, and it just felt like the spell was much stronger than any of the other direct damage options I had seen available to magicians...

ChrisDDickey
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Re: Is it just me, or is Invoke Leopard Pounce really strong?

Post by ChrisDDickey » Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:59 pm

Sharkforce wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:29 pm
yup. armour doesn't even help against it.
I am not 100% sure that armor doesn't help against it.
The Effect test determines how much damage is inflicted and the Knockdown Difficulty the target must resist.
Effect: WIL+4/Physical and causes Knockdown
Clearly the Will Effect test is reduced by Physical armor for purposes of determining Direct Damage, but I can't find anywhere that it says the Will Effect is not reduced by Physical armor for all other purposes as well. I think a GM would be on moderately safe ground ruling that all aspects of the Will effect are reduced by the listed armor unless somebody can find a definitive rule otherwise. Is there one?

Sharkforce
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Re: Is it just me, or is Invoke Leopard Pounce really strong?

Post by Sharkforce » Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:53 am

a GM is safe ruling whatever they want (and in general I would support house rules to make this spell less powerful, since as I said it is above what I would expect a direct damage spell to do for its circle), but the spell says that "The Effect test determines how much damage is inflicted and the Knockdown Difficulty the target must resist." armour modifies damage, but it doesn't modify effect tests.

that said, even if armour reduces the effect test (which I don't see any indication that it would) I still think this spell would be rather stronger than it should be. knocked down is a very strong status effect.

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Mataxes
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Re: Is it just me, or is Invoke Leopard Pounce really strong?

Post by Mataxes » Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:41 am

The spell is basically the "Shield Bash" talent (which is Novice-tier) with a 10-yard range.

The result of the Effect Test is reduced by armor, and that reduced result is both damage and Knockdown difficulty.
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Sharkforce
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Re: Is it just me, or is Invoke Leopard Pounce really strong?

Post by Sharkforce » Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:58 am

eh, well, you're the dev, so I guess that's what it was meant to say. that certainly does help, as it makes the knockdown chance considerably less likely to happen. still seems extremely strong for a 1st circle spell though.

Belenus
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Re: Is it just me, or is Invoke Leopard Pounce really strong?

Post by Belenus » Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:18 am

Mataxes wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:41 am
The spell is basically the "Shield Bash" talent (which is Novice-tier) with a 10-yard range.

The result of the Effect Test is reduced by armor, and that reduced result is both damage and Knockdown difficulty.
I would then use the description of Shield Bash:
The target of the spell makes a Knockdown test using the damage dealt as the Difficulty Number.
But it's still far stronger than Shiel Bash: More range, more damage (Wil+4 is equivalent to Shield Bash in Rank 4 or Shield Bash+Karma), you can use it two times with an Enhanced Matrix and with willforce it gets even more powerful.

And as already noted: Stronger than any other spell.

ottdmk
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Re: Is it just me, or is Invoke Leopard Pounce really strong?

Post by ottdmk » Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:16 am

I'd disagree on the whole "Stronger than any other spell."

Yes, it gets +2 on the Effect test compared to Mind Dagger. However, Mind Dagger has +10y range, goes against Mystic Armor, not Physical, and has a guaranteed side effect of -2 PD for 2 rounds, as opposed to the possibility of a Knockdown.

I'll keep my Mind Dagger, thank you. :D

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