Air Dance worth it?

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Altanius
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Air Dance worth it?

Post by Altanius » Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:37 pm

I'm playing a Warrior in a campaign using the optional talent rules and I find myself wondering if Air Dance is worth it as compared to Tiger Spring. The extra strain every turn is actually kind of a lot, and 3 success over someone else on init is also a low. To be frank, I'm just not sure that (what appears to be) a relatively remote chance of getting an extra attack is worth the extra strain every turn.

Any insight you guys can provide would be appreciated.

Michael
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Re: Air Dance worth it?

Post by Michael » Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:28 pm

well Air dance must have been the be all end all in the last edition to make these changes. Used to be 1 strain and an excellent success. Granted the scaling system it used to do this was a bit odd. For anything under a TN 7 you needed +8 for an excellent and after TN 10 it was +10

I think Air dance will be something to pick up once your initiative gets much higher with tiger spring. However, not sure when you will beating the +15 you need to get that extra attack. (3 success seems like a lot). Battle Rites at 5th will bring the strain down by 1. Too bad it's your discipline talent for 3.

Altanius
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Re: Air Dance worth it?

Post by Altanius » Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:33 pm

Michael wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:28 pm
I think Air dance will be something to pick up once your initiative gets much higher with tiger spring.
Heh, 3 strain a turn just on initiative is a pretty painful, especially for one extra attack.
Michael wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:28 pm
Too bad it's your discipline talent for 3.
We play with the optional discipline talents advance rule, so I could skip if I wanted to. Hence the topic here.

utsukushi
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Re: Air Dance worth it?

Post by utsukushi » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:13 pm

I'd note that extra attacks, especially at lower Circles, have been made a lot less accessible than they used to be, though. You really can't start with Second Attack and/or Second Weapon any more. I'm guessing that's why the threshold was set a little higher than it used to be -- extra attacks are more precious. And when you get to higher Circles, the Strain is less of an issue and an Initiative-focused Warrior can really start rolling higher numbers than many of their opponents, so as extra attacks become more reliable, this one also becomes more common.

Whether or not it's worth it probably depends on your overall focus. But just, like, in and of itself, yeah, I think it's still pretty solid.

Slimcreeper
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Re: Air Dance worth it?

Post by Slimcreeper » Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:02 am

It's probably worth it against a heavily-armored mage hiding in the back but not against a half-naked windling beastmaster.

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Mataxes
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Re: Air Dance worth it?

Post by Mataxes » Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:46 am

To clarify: to get the extra attack with Air Dance with three successes, not three extra successes (for a total of four).

For a more concrete example, it your target scored a 7 on their Initiative, here's the breakdown:

Air Dance result less than 7: No successes.
Air Dance result of 7-11: One success (you "succeed" when you equal or exceed the target number)
Air Dance result of 12-16: Two successes (one for equaling the DN 7, plus one "extra" for getting 5 over the DN)
Air Dance result of 17+: Three successes (one for equaling DN 7, plus two "extra" for getting 10 over the DN)

I can understand the confusion (the wording isn't great), but look at it more like Maneuver, or Taunt, or Mystic Aim, or any of the other talents that have a flat "each success does X" kind of mechanic -- you count successes starting from the DN. It's just that some talents (like Melee Weapons) don't start doing anything "extra" until... well, you get "extra".

Does that help at all?
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Altanius
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Re: Air Dance worth it?

Post by Altanius » Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:53 am

That... actually does make quite a difference, yes. Thanks Mataxes!

Lursi
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Re: Air Dance worth it?

Post by Lursi » Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:18 pm

Also, one should not forget the value of being able to react to most other initiative results.

It also offers secondary benefits to talents like maneuver.

Lastly, you can make a difference killing a big monster before it strikes again 6 times and maybe pushes one of your friends over the line.

For me, one of the strongest talents being. fighter that uses Maneuver as well.
Of all things I lost, sanity I held dearest.

Lursi
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Re: Air Dance worth it?

Post by Lursi » Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:05 am

Mataxes wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:46 am
To clarify: to get the extra attack with Air Dance with three successes, not three extra successes (for a total of four).

For a more concrete example, it your target scored a 7 on their Initiative, here's the breakdown:

Air Dance result less than 7: No successes.
Air Dance result of 7-11: One success (you "succeed" when you equal or exceed the target number)
Air Dance result of 12-16: Two successes (one for equaling the DN 7, plus one "extra" for getting 5 over the DN)
Air Dance result of 17+: Three successes (one for equaling DN 7, plus two "extra" for getting 10 over the DN)
I had a discussion with my GM yesterday. As a human wizard, does Air Dance(given you score 10 higher ini)...
A)... allow you to cast a zero thread spell twice against the very target of your first attack?
B)... allow you to do thread weaving and spellcasting in one round?
C)... allow you to cast a zero thread spell against your target and one against another target in your extra round?
D)... none of the above, as it it is only intended for melee attacks?

I would vote for A) as the Air Dance is compared to the result of your direct enemy, your actions are somewhat connected to this enemy.

Although we play ED2, I would say the only thing changed is the success condition (which is clear in both editions) and not the outcome.
Of all things I lost, sanity I held dearest.

Aegharan
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Re: Air Dance worth it?

Post by Aegharan » Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:20 pm

I can only speak for 4th Edition, where it's specifically noted that only if the adept makes a close combat attack that round, the comparing initiatives happens. And if 3 successes, then he may make an additional close combat attack.

So per the written rules, for 4th Edition, no use for Spellcasters other than being faster in Initiative, as long as they don't pull out their weapons and enter melee :)

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