Even more questions: spells

Discussion on game mastering Earthdawn. May contain spoilers; caution is recommended!
Bonhumm
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Even more questions: spells

Post by Bonhumm » Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:15 am

Never played much of a caster so I'm a bit confused here.

I'm trying to figure out exactly the process to learn new spell, both when increasing Circle and whenever else (other than at creation).

I seem to remember, in previous editions, that when training for a new Circle, the mage trainer included in the price of the training a certain amount of 'free' spell levels that could be copied from his grimmoire (don't remember if it was fixed or based on an Attribute).


Reading the player's, I cannot find anything concerning 'free' spells during training for Circle advancement, did that 'tradition' disappeared while I wasen't looking?

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Re: Even more questions: spells

Post by Mataxes » Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:04 am

Yes, it did.

(I think that was only something in 3rd edition.)
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Re: Even more questions: spells

Post by Bonhumm » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:44 am

Thank you, I guess that's one of the reason why both spell matrices are free talents, I was thinking it was a bit too much to the advantage of casters but if they now need to spend LP (and SP) on every single spell (except creation) I guess it balance itself (even maybe a bit of a disadvantage).

Another question tho, this time about the combat options (aggressive attack/defensive stance).

From a previous question, I get that aggressive attack is only for melee/unarmed attacks but I was also told that now Defense Stance could apply to ranged attack (I assumed it meant missile/throwing weapons) but what about casters?

I can imagine an Archer being more careful at not exposing himself in the open too much, walking backward to get away from the fight, small things to improve his defense that would also result into a lower hit/damage chance but could the same thing be said from a caster?

So basically: does Defensive Stance apply to caster (and I guess it also brings the question whether Aggressive Attack could apply to 'touch' spells) and if so, how would you apply the debuffs? (-3 to spell casting and -3 to willpower/willforce?)

Thank you again.

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Re: Even more questions: spells

Post by Bonhumm » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:36 pm

Another one.

About grimoires: What if grimoire is lost, destroyed or taken away? (lets not get into the pattern item issues here)

It was my understanding that grimoires where required to attune matrices; so that when you want to change the spell in a Matrix you are actively reading from the book, so losing it you cannot re-attune any spell (although those already present in matrices are still present).

But then there I thought about the re-attuning on the fly mechanics. Since it only takes a round, I have difficulties with the concept that the mage pull out the book from his bag, opens it in the correct page, read the spell and then attune the matrix in those few seconds.

So, his my assumption about no grimoire = no re-attuning is wrong or could a book-less mage override the need for the grimoire by simply always re-attuning on the fly?

Also: about the Book Memory Talent, 'I commited my grimoire to memory, so no need to carry it with me anymore'. Valid or not?


Moar: I remember saying another post about that but cannot find it nor remember the conclusion. About Mutil-classing casters and/or Versatility concerning Spell Matrices.

Does a dual-class Elementalist/Wizard get 4 free (or not) 1st Circle Matrices or just 2 total? Also, if 4, does each matrices are 'reserved' for spells of that discipline only or could the mage store 4 Elementalist spells in them?

Thank you again.

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Re: Even more questions: spells

Post by Mataxes » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:05 pm

Bonhumm wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:36 pm
About grimoires: What if grimoire is lost, destroyed or taken away? (lets not get into the pattern item issues here)

It was my understanding that grimoires where required to attune matrices; so that when you want to change the spell in a Matrix you are actively reading from the book, so losing it you cannot re-attune any spell (although those already present in matrices are still present).

But then there I thought about the re-attuning on the fly mechanics. Since it only takes a round, I have difficulties with the concept that the mage pull out the book from his bag, opens it in the correct page, read the spell and then attune the matrix in those few seconds.

So, his my assumption about no grimoire = no re-attuning is wrong or could a book-less mage override the need for the grimoire by simply always re-attuning on the fly?
A magician does not need to refer to their grimoire to reattune spells (on the fly or otherwise) (though it may be something they do for 'flavor').

If a magician loses their grimoire (setting aside pattern item questions), they need to make a new one. There aren't really any rules for this -- but I would say it isn't something they can do "on the trail". It should take some time -- a day or so at least -- and the appropriate materials and resources (and possibly Patterncraft tests, depending on how mean you want to be). Until they do that, I would rule they can't effectively learn new spells.
Also: about the Book Memory Talent, 'I commited my grimoire to memory, so no need to carry it with me anymore'. Valid or not?
They could do that (after all, I envision a grimoire as having more than just spells in it -- it likely has notes, commentary, and other stuff in there, like a lab notebook). Of course, they run into the problem they can't learn a new spell until you have access to their grimoire (you can't modify a book stored in memory, only recall it), and I would rule you can't grimoire cast from one stored through Book Memory.

In other words, doing that avoids one problem while limiting your other available options.
Moar: I remember saying another post about that but cannot find it nor remember the conclusion. About Mutil-classing casters and/or Versatility concerning Spell Matrices.

Does a dual-class Elementalist/Wizard get 4 free (or not) 1st Circle Matrices or just 2 total? Also, if 4, does each matrices are 'reserved' for spells of that discipline only or could the mage store 4 Elementalist spells in them?

Thank you again.
Matrices are not Discipline specific, and the free ones don't stack. A Wizard that picks up Elementalism still only has two "free" matrices (and if they reach C5 in both Disciplines, they only have one free Enhanced Matrix). They could use a talent option slot from each Discipline to gain an extra standard matrix from each Discipline, but those cost Legend as normal (and any spell could be put in them).
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Re: Even more questions: spells

Post by Bonhumm » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:20 pm

Thank you again for your reply. But just to be sure since you used the term 'free matrices' instead of 'matrices':

So would a (theoretically impossible I know) dual class 1st Circle Elementalist and 1st Circle Wizard have (optional talents non-withstanding) 2 Matrices (free OR not) or 4?


Also; repeating a previous questions with no answers yet:

about the combat options (aggressive attack/defensive stance).

From a previous question, I get that aggressive attack is only for melee/unarmed attacks but I was also told that now Defense Stance could apply to ranged attack (I assumed it meant missile/throwing weapons) but what about casters?

I can imagine an Archer being more careful at not exposing himself in the open too much, walking backward to get away from the fight, small things to improve his defense that would also result into a lower hit/damage chance but could the same thing be said from a caster?

So basically: does Defensive Stance apply to caster (and I guess it also brings the question whether Aggressive Attack could apply to 'touch' spells) and if so, how would you apply the debuffs? (-3 to spell casting and -3 to willpower/willforce?)

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Re: Even more questions: spells

Post by Mataxes » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:27 pm

Bonhumm wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:20 pm
Thank you again for your reply. But just to be sure since you used the term 'free matrices' instead of 'matrices':

So would a (theoretically impossible I know) dual class 1st Circle Elementalist and 1st Circle Wizard have (optional talents non-withstanding) 2 Matrices (free OR not) or 4?
I don't completely understand your phrasing, so let me lay it out a bit differently. Our theoretical dual-Discipline magician could have up to four total Standard matrices:

* Free Standard Matrix #1
* Free Standard Matrix #2
* Wizard Talent Option Standard Matrix
* Elementalist Talent Option Standard Matrix

The first two advance with the highest magician Circle. The other two are purchased with Legend Points and advanced as normal talents.
Also; repeating a previous questions with no answers yet:

about the combat options (aggressive attack/defensive stance).

From a previous question, I get that aggressive attack is only for melee/unarmed attacks but I was also told that now Defense Stance could apply to ranged attack (I assumed it meant missile/throwing weapons) but what about casters?

I can imagine an Archer being more careful at not exposing himself in the open too much, walking backward to get away from the fight, small things to improve his defense that would also result into a lower hit/damage chance but could the same thing be said from a caster?

So basically: does Defensive Stance apply to caster (and I guess it also brings the question whether Aggressive Attack could apply to 'touch' spells) and if so, how would you apply the debuffs? (-3 to spell casting and -3 to willpower/willforce?)
I would allow a caster to cast using the Defensive Stance option, applying the penalties as you describe.
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Bonhumm
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Re: Even more questions: spells

Post by Bonhumm » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:44 pm

What I meant was whether the dual class first circle would get:


From ELEMENTALIST:
Awareness
Patterncraft
Spellcasting
Thread Weaving (Elementalist)
Wood Skin
Spell Matrix (Free)
Spell Matrix (Free)

+ Whatever 1st Circle Talent Option

PLUS

From WIZARD:
Dispel Magic
Research
Thread Weaving (Wizard)
Spell Matrix (NOT free)
Spell Matrix (NOT free)

+ Whatever 1st Circle Talent Option


OR WOULD IT GET:

From ELEMENTALIST:
Awareness
Patterncraft
Spellcasting
Thread Weaving (Elementalist)
Wood Skin
Spell Matrix (Free)
Spell Matrix (Free)

+ Whatever 1st Circle Talent Option

PLUS

From WIZARD:
Dispel Magic
Research
Thread Weaving (Wizard)
No additional spell matrices
+ Whatever 1st Circle Talent Option

But I still got the answer I was looking for.

Thank you again for your prompt help.

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Re: Even more questions: spells

Post by ChrisDDickey » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:05 am

Just to rephrase the topic of Aggressive and Defensive options to hopefully simplify the concept.
Both stances have benefits and penalties.

The benefit of Aggressive Attack is +3 to close combat attack and damage. The penalty is -3 to PD and MD and one extra strain for every Close Combat attack, with a minimum of one. Anybody can declare an Aggressive Stance, and indeed there are effects (fog of fear is one) that force one into an Aggressive Stance. Everybody in the stance gets the penalties, but only those doing Close Combat attacks get any benefit out of the stance. So you would not voluntarily declare it unless planning a Close Combat attack. But anybody could.

The benefit of Defensive Stance is +3 to PD and MD against all attacks they are are aware of. This includes Close Combat, Ranged, and Spells. The penalty is -3 to almost all tests. This included Close combat, ranged, thread weaving and spell-casting. So the benefits of Defensive Stance are available to all those in need of them and is happy with the trade-off of penalties, and the stance can be declared by anybody who is not knocked down.

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Re: Even more questions: spells

Post by Lursi » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:04 am

Bonhumm wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:20 pm

I can imagine an Archer being more careful at not exposing himself in the open too much, walking backward to get away from the fight, small things to improve his defense that would also result into a lower hit/damage chance but could the same thing be said from a caster?
Hasn’t been there an option called giving ground that did not have negative side effects as long as you could move backwards?
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