Even more questions: spells

[Bonhumm]

Hasn’t been there an option called giving ground that did not have negative side effects as long as you could move backwards?

There was.


More question: about the Dispel Magic Spell.

The mechanics seems to describe its effect against spells and talents effects but I was wondering about other aspect of magic.

Could the spell be used to:

- Remove (unweave?) a thread between a character and his Thread item? What about the one with a Group Pattern?
- Could it 'cancel' a blood promise?
- Could it 'turn off' a blood charm (also, is there any defined mechanics how a blood charm is 'installed'? Does it need a mage/weaponsmith or does it just come with a user manual?)
- Could it 'destroy' the enchantment of a magic item (like an Everclean cloak or a light crystal)?
- Could it even be used to 'un-name' (e.g destroying the True Pattern) of a object, place or even person?

Also: exact same questions but about the Suppress Magic power of Horrors.

Thank you.

[etherial]

I can imagine an Archer being more careful at not exposing himself in the open too much, walking backward to get away from the fight, small things to improve his defense that would also result into a lower hit/damage chance but could the same thing be said from a caster?

Hasn’t been there an option called giving ground that did not have negative side effects as long as you could move backwards?

Give Ground is now a Talent Knack:

Give Ground [Special Maneuver]
Talent: Melee Weapons, Unarmed Combat
Requirements: Rank 6 Restrictions: None
Give Ground (Adept, Close Combat): The adept may spend additional successes to retreat two yards per success. The adept gains +1 to Physical Defense until the end of the next round for every two yards ceded through this special maneuver. Movement through this special maneuver does not trigger effects from opponents, but opponents are allowed to follow the adept up to their remaining Movement Rate as a Free action. The adept is limited to Rank yards.

[Mataxes]

More question: about the Dispel Magic Spell.

The mechanics seems to describe its effect against spells and talents effects but I was wondering about other aspect of magic.

Could the spell be used to:

- Remove (unweave?) a thread between a character and his Thread item? What about the one with a Group Pattern?
- Could it 'cancel' a blood promise?
- Could it 'turn off' a blood charm?
- Could it 'destroy' the enchantment of a magic item (like an Everclean cloak or a light crystal)?
- Could it even be used to 'un-name' (e.g destroying the True Pattern) of a object, place or even person?

No. To all of these. Those are all really powerful effects, and well outside the range of a Novice-tier talent (it was a C1 spell in prior editions, but has been made a talent in ED4). I don't even think theoretical knacks for the talent would be able to pull stuff like this off. (un-Naming? Really?)

(also, is there any defined mechanics how a blood charm is 'installed'? Does it need a mage/weaponsmith or does it just come with a user manual?)

Unless an item specifically notes otherwise (Blood pebble armor, for example) blood charms are "press to exposed skin, wince at the brief pain."

Also: exact same questions but about the Suppress Magic power of Horrors.

Generally no. All of those things are powerful, lasting magical effects. With enough time and energy, a powerful Named Horror might be able to cause problems with woven threads, or do weird things with blood magic... but un-Naming? That's scary.

[BRW]

Could it even be used to 'un-name' (e.g destroying the True Pattern) of a object, place or even person?

This one actually sounds like an excellent plot device for high-level play. I don't have a clue what it could be mechanically. Extended and complicated ritual culminating after years of preparations, maybe?

[Bonhumm]

(un-Naming? Really?)

You never know. My True Pattern is magical, the spell dispel magic sooo.....

I did expect the TN to be extremely high but hey, I can achieve the same effect by sticking 50 or so blood charm on someone and wait for depatternization (wait, is this still a thing?)

Unless an item specifically notes otherwise (Blood pebble armor, for example) blood charms are "press to exposed skin, wince at the brief pain."

Thank you, I was assuming that but having confirmation is always good.

[etherial]

Could it even be used to 'un-name' (e.g destroying the True Pattern) of a object, place or even person?

This one actually sounds like an excellent plot device for high-level play. I don't have a clue what it could be mechanically. Extended and complicated ritual culminating after years of preparations, maybe?

Didn't the Dragons scoff at the idea that Vestrivan had this power?

[Mataxes]

(un-Naming? Really?)

You never know. My True Pattern is magical, the spell dispel magic sooo.....

The analogy that comes to mind is like saying, "The candle on my desk and a forest fire are both flames. I should be able to blow out the latter."

I did expect the TN to be extremely high but hey, I can achieve the same effect by sticking 50 or so blood charm on someone and wait for depatternization (wait, is this still a thing?)

Depatterning... is not officially a thing in ED4. Or rather, there aren't rules for it.

As for the "high TN"... take a look at the info on the "Shatter Pattern" spell later in the post and understand that even that spell doesn't un-Name something.

*****

Didn't the Dragons scoff at the idea that Vestrivan had [un-Naming]?

Yeah. In the original draft of the Dragons sourcebook (it's probably in the LRG version as well, but I didn't check) the Outcast says the Horror possessing Vestrivan ("The Despoiler of the Land") is

a Nametaker.... the Horror has the power to unravel the patterns of Named things to un-Name them. The Despoilers' power seems to make people forget who they are, what things are called, how they are enchanted.

And Mountainshadow's commentary reads:

That the Outcast can truly believe any of this is possible gives me great hope that he and his children are not so powerful as we once thought.
...
There is no such magic as un-Naming. The closest type of magic to that described here is depatterning, similar to the effects of excessive blood magic use (most often suffered by arrogant Therans), or perhaps a natural form of the pattern-weakening spells used by nethermancers.
...
To weaken , shatter, or even ultimately destroy a True Pattern may be similar to what we'd expect the results of un-Naming to be, but the two are not the same. Even the most damaged pattern can be restored, often quite easily, as was recently witnessed by Rathann, one of Doll-Maker's drakes.*

* Reference to the ED1 adventure Shattered Pattern.

Now, Mountainshadow might be wrong (he's not wrong often, but still...). When we're talking about powerful, unique Horrors, almost anything is possible. But Names are incredibly significant and magically potent. Undoing that... it's well outside the range of a novice-tier ability.

Shatter Pattern (which is alluded to in the quote) is a spell that originally appeared in ED1. It's a Circle 11 Nethermancer spell with some pretty heinous casting requirements (7 threads, for full effect each thread weaving test must get an Excellent success, in addition to raw damage it can also reduce Defense ratings). But even that spell doesn't un-Name the target. It just shreds the hell out of their pattern, weakening the target and causing amnesia for the duration.

[Bonhumm]

And it's time fooooooooor... more questions:

Now the skills:

There is a few things that are confusing me concerning artisan, artistic and knowledge skills, especially in the examples given.

1- Somehow 2 of the characters in my ground ended up in a culinary rivalry. One have the cooking ARTISAN skill (as listed in the example) and the other with the baking KNOWLEDGE skill (also as listed). I'm trying to figure out why some skills (like baking and farming) are listed as knowledge skills instead of artisan (or general).

I get that you have to 'know' stuff to bake or farm but this also applies to pretty much everything (I need to 'know' how to handle a blade so in that case why is Melee Weapon not a knowledge skill?). Was it an error (since baking is listed in both knowledge AND artistic, but then what about farming?) or am I missing something?

2- From my understanding of this, the reason why everyone has learned (at least) 1 artisan skill is to help to prove (kinda) that you are not horror mark (because horror marked people cannot create 'something beautiful'). Should not this be done by an artistic skill then? Again, I would not personally consider listed skills like cooking or baking (or made up artisan skill like stone masonry or roofing) as something 'beautiful'. Yes a meal could be made to look nice but that certainly would not mean it would tastes any good. So, basically, what I'm asking is that whether that free creation point should have been given to artistic skill instead of artisan?

3- The whole CHA as default attribute for ALL artisan skill confuses me too. Any insights?

Thank you again.

[Bonhumm]

Also:

I was (finally) reading the human section of the Denizens and suddenly, in the description of the various races/tribes they speak about the Scorchers. It seem to state that humans where the original scorchers (with now many outcast from other races). I was always under the impression that Scorchers where mainly orks. Did I miss something somewhere?

[ChrisDDickey]

I think that the difference between "knowledge baking" and "baking" is the difference between book learning and practical application.

That is to say, somebody can know a lot about baking, able to recognize all sorts of obscure ingredients, have many recipes memorized, and be able to recognize foreign foods, but still be a horrible baker, unable to properly regulate the temperature of a wood fired oven, sometimes forgetting to add ingredients, and producing burned or unevenly cooked goods, etc.

On the other hand, somebody with good "baking" but no "knowledge baking" would know only a few recipes, but be able to consistently produce those few items even under trying circumstances, but would do poorly at improvised or substituted ingredients.

Likewise, a good farmer can do all the tasks a farm needs. But sometimes knowledge farming is needed to determine the exact best week to start a task, or perhaps to recognize some obscure pest and know how to deal with it. It is the difference between knowing how to plant, and knowing when to plant.

Game mechanics wise, if the question is "Should we start plowing today, or wait another week", this is directly within the sphere of "knowledge farming", and the target number would be lower than if somebody were trying to answer the question using "farming". If the task is "plow 40 acres", the advantage goes to the guy who has the farming skill. See also the "Practical Knowledge" optional rule on page 187 of the players guide.

2 - Agreed. As GM I try to steer new players away from taking "Carpentry" or "Brewing" in favor of something artistic, portable and quickly demonstrated. That is not to say that a well made roof that displays excellent craftsmanship will not demonstrate to your neighbors that you have your stuff together. It is just much harder to demonstrate to the guys in the next village over.

3 - Personally, when a PC makes a map, I have then roll twice. Once with their mapmaking skill and PER to see how accurate the map is, and a 2nd time with mapmaking skill and CHA for how beautiful the map is. All actual artistic checks are made using CHA.