Perception for Insight

Discussion on game mastering Earthdawn. May contain spoilers; caution is recommended!
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Tattered Rags
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Perception for Insight

Post by Tattered Rags » Mon May 21, 2018 8:41 pm

I did a quick search of the forums to see if anything backed my reading of the rules. Namely, that all interaction tests use charisma (though willpower overcomes making an impression).

This makes sense for everything except insight. I just can't buy it. Sure, it measures "social savvy", so that could work. But perception measures ability to "notice things".

As I type this out I'm actually becoming more and more okay with charisma on insight checks.

Anyway, anyone else have this issue, either just thinking on their own or in gameplay?
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Bonhumm
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Re: Perception for Insight

Post by Bonhumm » Tue May 22, 2018 12:13 am

Give some examples of what you would consider 'insight' here:

The 'social savvy' would indeed be charisma (as it is the attribute used with the talent Empathic Sense) while 'noticing things' would be perception (the attribute of the talents Awareness and Evidence Analysis).

Slimcreeper
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Re: Perception for Insight

Post by Slimcreeper » Tue May 22, 2018 4:25 am

Capital ‘I’ Insight is Charisma. I had it in my head that it was a Perception test too. But social savvy is separated from observational skills. Perception is already overloaded, to be honest.

Tattered Rags
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Re: Perception for Insight

Post by Tattered Rags » Tue May 22, 2018 10:46 am

Bonhumm wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 12:13 am
Give some examples of what you would consider 'insight' here:
GMG 4E, pg 146 wrote: Insight
When a character wants to get a read on another character, or try and determine whether they are being deceived, they use this kind of Interaction test. If successful, the character gains information that might provide useful information with regard to current or future social interactions. There are two main uses for insight.
Determining basic emotion.
Detecting deception.
So, anything that would fit the above.

I'm actually cool with it being charisma now. It's not perfect, but it makes more sense than not. I might possibly allow perception should a player really want it, but "social savvy" really does indicate interpreting the little cues that indicate lying.
Slimcreeper wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 4:25 am
Perception is already overloaded, to be honest.
Certainly true.
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Serespar
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Re: Perception for Insight

Post by Serespar » Tue May 22, 2018 3:45 pm

I've also seen STR used for intimidation interaction tests; i.e. gnarly ork picks up chair and smashes it to pieces on the floor while roaring "AAAARGH" at the thief. Ork can have crap for charisma and very little finesse, but the thief thought he got his point across pretty clearly ;p Also have seen WIL based tests for resisting intimidation. Basic point is that CHR is the definite go to underlying attribute for interaction tests, but GM call / in play variations are a lot of fun too.

Panda
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Re: Perception for Insight

Post by Panda » Tue May 22, 2018 10:04 pm

Greetings,

To put forth a counterpoint to using strength for intimidation (which isn't to say doing so is wrong, but there is a neglected perspective):

If someone is going to be intimidated by the sheer lack of subtlety associated with strength, there probably doesn't need to be a roll. They already are intimidated and stop whatever they're doing and are probably going to do whatever they're forced to do. I wouldn't really require a test for this unsubtle threat of violence; I'm big and strong and going to hit you. However, any attempt at subtlety or against a target with something resembling a spine isn't likely to respond as well. The obsidiman may not have much in the way of Social Defense, but they certainly aren't intimidated by the gun show on display from an ork. We've just entered into the realm of Charisma and knowing something about the target, however minimal. Now, this isn't to say a show of strength won't help, it certainly might, say, some kind of Impressive Display which can leverage successes into bonuses on an interaction test.

From the perspective of a PC, you've faced down gargantuan Horrors who may very well have swallowed you whole while you had to cut your way out from the inside. Something everyone promised to never speak of again. Except the Troubadour is taking a literal interpretation and insists on singing about it constantly. It's not likely you're going to be much impressed by anyone who is simply strong. In your world, that's a pretty low bar for scary. Someone who knows how to use that strength in creative and scary ways, well... that's another thing.

Again, I don't take issue with doing what your group wants at the table. Just want to share a different perspective and how existing tools were intended to support various actions in ways which may be far less obvious than intended (or easily forgotten - Impressive Display is easy to overlook, but makes a great skill!).

Hopefully this was useful in some way. If there are any questions or anything further I can do, please let me know.

Best regards,

Morgan

Slimcreeper
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Re: Perception for Insight

Post by Slimcreeper » Tue May 22, 2018 11:27 pm

That was such a useful and courteous reply that I have a really strong urge to say mean, nasty things.

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Mataxes
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Re: Perception for Insight

Post by Mataxes » Wed May 23, 2018 2:16 am

Slimcreeper wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 11:27 pm
That was such a useful and courteous reply that I have a really strong urge to say mean, nasty things.
*Glare*
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