Spell Matrices and Multi-Disciplines

[Reyntrannin]

I'm starting a new campaign, and one of my players wants (if I ok it) to play a character who is trying to master the arcane arts. Normally, I'd just tell him to play a human and use versatility for it, but he actually wants to try and do it through multi-disciplining.
Aside from the extreme headache for both him and me of dealing with the role-playing aspects, I'm not completely sure how I want to deal with the spell matrices for a caster following two (or more) different spell casting disciplines. I was hoping to get some input on how others have dealt with this talent when someone has two caster disciplines. In theory, I was planning to make spell matrices discipline specific, even though that is not how they are described in the rules. I think this will allow the freedom to fully act as a caster of that discipline, while not allowing too much power creep in the highest circle, but I'm wondering how much difference it will be if I only apply that to the initial, free spell matrices.
I'd love to hear from people who've dealt with this to provide a little guidance on how to proceed.

[Calamrin]

Im prolly wrong, but think im right....if u multi to another caster type...which in itself is not really within the balance/design of the game, you dont keep getting two free matrix each time you add a caster class...you just get the original 2 free ones.

Someone with more experience than me will offer you a better idea of it, just saw the new message and replied with what i thought)

From my experience of the boards/discussions, and playing being a Wizard/elementalist/illusionist/nethermancer would be overpowered, and not really how the worlds supposed to work.... but end of the day its your world, and its a game and anything can work with the right group)

[ottdmk]

Multi Discipline Magicians

In Earthdawn, magicians may learn other magician Disciplines. A character learning multiple spellcasting Disciplines does not learn the free spell matrix talents available to the other Discipline, as they duplicate an ability they already have (see Learning New Disciplines, p. 455). A magician may learn additional spell matrix talents by using talent option slots, as usual. As with spell matrices from their first Discipline, each spell matrix is its own talent that must be increased separately.

So there you have it. They won't get the two free ones, but they can get an extra or two with the new Talent Options. Given the insane Legend Point costs of multi-disciplining, particularly if you start at it early, an extra Standard Matrix or two won't really unbalance anything imho.

[etherial]

Multi Discipline Magicians

In Earthdawn, magicians may learn other magician Disciplines. A character learning multiple spellcasting Disciplines does not learn the free spell matrix talents available to the other Discipline, as they duplicate an ability they already have (see Learning New Disciplines, p. 455). A magician may learn additional spell matrix talents by using talent option slots, as usual. As with spell matrices from their first Discipline, each spell matrix is its own talent that must be increased separately.

So there you have it. They won't get the two free ones, but they can get an extra or two with the new Talent Options. Given the insane Legend Point costs of multi-disciplining, particularly if you start at it early, an extra Standard Matrix or two won't really unbalance anything imho.

I would not interpret "As usual" to mean they can buy more than just the ones listed in their existing TO lists.

Here's the link to the last time we talked about this:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=594&hilit=Spell+matrices

[Calamrin]

So to sum up... having 4 spellcasting diciplines, aside from the high legend point costs ( personally dont think they are cripplingly high considering the amount of dicipline talents that can be picked up, and the fact each circle increases on the Fibonacci scale)

A 4 dicipline caster is still only going to have 2 enhanced and 2 standard matrix (provided they got the 2 alternate talent options, and excluding any matrix pattern items they may have gained)

[Mataxes]

There actually aren't that many shared Discipline talents across the magician Disciplines. I just checked the talent matrix, and here are the Discipline talents in common:

Astral Sight: Neth 1, Wiz 2
Concise Casting: Elem/Ill/Neth/Wiz 12
Hold Thread: Elem/Ill/Neth 8, Wiz 7
Patterncraft: Elem/Ill/Neth/Wiz 1
Spellcasting: Elem/Ill/Neth/Wiz 1
Spliced Weave: Elem/Ill/Neth/Wiz 15
Steel Thought: Neth 2, Wiz 4
Summon: Elem/Neth 5
Wilforce: Elem/Ill/Neth/Wiz 6

Thread Weaving doesn't count, as it is unique to each Discipline. Summon could be considered unique, but I don't think I would require a summoning Discipline to learn another version from scratch. Just open up the new type of spirit when you reach the appropriate Circle.

If you use the old style "advance with ay talents" option it opens up quite a bit more, but you're still looking at a lot of Legend.

[kendaan]

(created an account just to jump on that thread)

Has anyone actually seen a multi Discipline caster in play?

Seems to me that they wouldn't be that overpowered.

The resource cost for additional matrices (whether as talent or as items), plus the cost of additional spell, other characters would be of higher circle and/or with more diverse equipment.

Plus with the way threadweaving works, you are limited in the number of spells you can cast, so in a fight, that wouldn't add that much in my opinion.

I could see that it could on paper be interesting to pick all the utility spells plus the best attack/buff/debuff/control spells, but I doubt the actual efficiency (and a versatile Human would probably be more efficient for just utility spells)

[Mataxes]

In my old ED1 game back in 90s I didn't have a multi-Discipline caster, but one of the PCs was a human Wizard who picked up Elementalism and Illusion through Versatility. Started as a new character and ended up... around Circle 7 or 8 when we stopped playing.

(The character is memorialzed as Tomas in several examples in the ED4 core books.)

I didn't find him overpowered. The biggest thing he had was flexibility -- more tools in his toolbox -- but available matrices imposed a pretty solid limit on what he could bring to bear at once. With enough time to reattune freely? That flexibility was a sort of power, but in combat it was a lot more restricted.

Edit: And welcome to the forum!

[etherial]

We've got a Swiss Army Mage in the West Marches Campaign. Second Circle Wizard and he's already picked up all 3 other Thread Weavings and a bunch of Spells. He's very versatile, but (so far) not overpowering.

[ChrisDDickey]

We've got a Swiss Army Mage in the West Marches Campaign. Second Circle Wizard and he's already picked up all 3 other Thread Weavings and a bunch of Spells. He's very versatile, but (so far) not overpowering.

Of course he has been on 10 adventures, and is STILL only 2nd circle. If not for his Versatility and 26 spells he could probably be 4th circle by now if he wanted to be. So I think it balances. Do you want to be a 2nd circle jack of all trades, or a 4th circle Wizard. Ether one is a valid choice.


I played a Wizard/Illusionist once and felt it was pretty balanced. Like any other spellcaster you can only cast one spell at a time. The only difference is that you have a wider choice of options to choose from. When presented with a situation, if you have time to sit down and reattune your matrices, you have a wider choice of spells to choose from and are more likely to have at least one that can help in many situations. And sometimes you can stack buffs. But it comes down to building your character taller or wider. Would you rather be a 7th circle wizard, or a 6th circle Wizard / 4th circle Illusionist. Advantages both ways, but in balance I would say they are about equal.