Relative age by race
I hit a little snag on how to handle age for children in Earthdawn.
I'm currently dealing with an issue concerning the street gang 'Ghagin's grandchildren' in the Kratas sourcebook. The gang is formed exclusively by children (except for the leader, an old dwarf) and I'm having issues on how 'mentally mature' should be the children depending of their races.
For examples:
- Windlings are considered 'physically mature' by the age of 30 (and then stop aging!). Then how would a 15 years old windling act? Would it be like a human 15 years old or (since being only half-way to adulthood) like a 7-8 years old human? Elves aren't much better either.
- The opposite is also valid: T'skrang are considered 'physically mature' by the age of 10 (!!) and orks/trolls by around 13 (the concept of a 26 years old granfather gives me headaches). Should I roleplay a 'brand new adult' T'skrang with the maturity of a 10 years old? Now that I think about it, this MIGHT actually explain a bit of the stereotype the other races have toward orks; that fully grown 'adult' over there is not really a hot-tempered ork, he's just a 14 years old having a tantrum.
So basically, would you make them act like their 'real' age (i.e. no matter their physical look, they still have 'x' years of experience in life) or would you make them act like their 'apparent human age' (i.e. a 16 years old elf would 'act' like a 10 years old human because that's how it looks like)?
I'm currently dealing with an issue concerning the street gang 'Ghagin's grandchildren' in the Kratas sourcebook. The gang is formed exclusively by children (except for the leader, an old dwarf) and I'm having issues on how 'mentally mature' should be the children depending of their races.
For examples:
- Windlings are considered 'physically mature' by the age of 30 (and then stop aging!). Then how would a 15 years old windling act? Would it be like a human 15 years old or (since being only half-way to adulthood) like a 7-8 years old human? Elves aren't much better either.
- The opposite is also valid: T'skrang are considered 'physically mature' by the age of 10 (!!) and orks/trolls by around 13 (the concept of a 26 years old granfather gives me headaches). Should I roleplay a 'brand new adult' T'skrang with the maturity of a 10 years old? Now that I think about it, this MIGHT actually explain a bit of the stereotype the other races have toward orks; that fully grown 'adult' over there is not really a hot-tempered ork, he's just a 14 years old having a tantrum.
So basically, would you make them act like their 'real' age (i.e. no matter their physical look, they still have 'x' years of experience in life) or would you make them act like their 'apparent human age' (i.e. a 16 years old elf would 'act' like a 10 years old human because that's how it looks like)?
Last edited by Bonhumm on Fri May 18, 2018 6:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Relative age by race
This is an interesting question! I will have to think about how I would handle that.
Re: Relative age by race
Maturity has two components: brain-body development and experience, both of which are variable from individual to individual. Sticking to humans, you can have really mature 12 year olds and extremely childish 24 year olds, because quality of experience matters much more than quantity of experience. However, the 12 year old will still have an early pubescent body, and the 24 year old will be finishing or finished with final stages of brain development. So things the the older individual will have an easier time with self-control as well as performing physically and mentally demanding tasks. Even if they haven't learned those skills they'll have an easier time picking them up. Applying this to a 15 year old ork, not only will he have a body more developed than that of a 15 year old human, making it easier for him to act mature, but he will also enjoy the advantage of being treated accordingly, giving him more adult experiences than the human.
Additionally, the impression i get with Orks is that they just don't do old age like the other races do, rather they tend to burn out. A 40 year old ork doesn't look any older than a 40 year old human, they're both past their prime but still reasonably healthy and strong. The difference is that the human will tend to decline slowly into old age, infirmity, and death, whereas the ork will tend to keel over and die when they reach their limit. Basically ork bodies stay in their prime longer than human bodies do, but the price they pay is that they tend to fail quite rapidly. If ever meet an ork who actually looks old, she'll still be strong enough to kick your ass, but she might just die after doing so. For bonus points, she's likely to think that dying while kicking your ass is better than dying in bed, so she's probably pretty fighty.
For longer lived races, a 20 year old elf still had an adolescent body, which means raging hormones and not a fully developed brain. While he may not be as inexperienced as an adolescent human by virtue of having more years under his belt, he is also going to find it more difficult to act with the same maturity a 20 year old human can muster, though he could approximate if circumstances forced him to.
As for Tskrang, they start puberty "after their first decade" which is also when humans start theirs, so presumably both also end at roughly the same time.
Additionally, the impression i get with Orks is that they just don't do old age like the other races do, rather they tend to burn out. A 40 year old ork doesn't look any older than a 40 year old human, they're both past their prime but still reasonably healthy and strong. The difference is that the human will tend to decline slowly into old age, infirmity, and death, whereas the ork will tend to keel over and die when they reach their limit. Basically ork bodies stay in their prime longer than human bodies do, but the price they pay is that they tend to fail quite rapidly. If ever meet an ork who actually looks old, she'll still be strong enough to kick your ass, but she might just die after doing so. For bonus points, she's likely to think that dying while kicking your ass is better than dying in bed, so she's probably pretty fighty.
For longer lived races, a 20 year old elf still had an adolescent body, which means raging hormones and not a fully developed brain. While he may not be as inexperienced as an adolescent human by virtue of having more years under his belt, he is also going to find it more difficult to act with the same maturity a 20 year old human can muster, though he could approximate if circumstances forced him to.
As for Tskrang, they start puberty "after their first decade" which is also when humans start theirs, so presumably both also end at roughly the same time.
Re: Relative age by race
I agree 100% with you there, this is also how I saw it. However, we might be biased by the fact that we are human. Would an elf community expect 'adult level maturity of behavior' from a 16 years old despite having a pre/early pubescent look? THEY know the 'kid' lived around 16 years and 'should' act accordingly. The opposite might also be true; no matter how 'adult' looking a 13 years old ork looks like/act, his own community would know he has very limited life experience so his voice might not carry as much weight as other adults.Lys wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:33 amMaturity has two components: brain-body development and experience, both of which are variable from individual to individual. Sticking to humans, you can have really mature 12 year old and extremely childish 24 year old, because quality of experience matters much more than quantity of experience. However, the 12 year old will still have an early pubescent body, and the 24 year old will be finishing or finished with final stages of brain development. So things the the older individual will have an easier time with self-control as well as performing physically and mentally demanding tasks. Even if they haven't learned those skills they'll have an easier time picking them up. Applying this to a 15 year old ork, not only will he have a body more developed than that of a 15 year old human, making it easier for him to act mature, but he will also enjoy the advantage of being treated accordingly, giving him more adult experiences than the human.
I'm not so sure about that. The only canon thing that comes to my mind here is the story introduction of the 'Burning Desire' adventure book (ED3). The protagonist is a 40 years old ork woman who, despite proudly claiming she' still strong, his complaining from old age ailments. But on the other hand, I think Gharlik one-eye is somewhere around 60 and is still kicking. I guess it varies from persons to persons, I mean my own father is +70 now and could probably still kick my ass.Lys wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:33 amAdditionally, the impression i get with Orks is that they just don't do old age like the other races do, rather they tend to burn out. A 40 year old ork doesn't look any older than a 40 year old human, they're both past their prime but still reasonably healthy and strong.
The latest editions indeed uses the cryptic 'after their first decade' when describing the time where their genders are revealed. However, the first and second edition clearly states that the T'skrang are mature physically 'by the age of 10'.
Also, I've notice a major change about dwarves between 4ED and all the others. Up to the 4th edition, dwarves were described as reaching physical maturity 'after 10'. Considering that all other races that get physically mature somewhere in their teens are describe as so (early/mid/late teens) I would therefore think that it means that for dwarves it would be before the teens (so between 10 and 12+). But then boom; 4 ED says 'late teens', moving the dwarves from the second fastest maturing race to the 3rd to last one. I'd say it makes more sense for a race that lives 100 years (25% more than humans) but still, that's a huge change.
What does not help either is the terminology they uses. Although 'physical maturity', 'puberty', 'coming of age' and 'adult' are related, they do not mean the same thing. For example, the elves 'physical maturity' varies from one edition to another (from 'early 20s' to 'in their 20s' therefore average of 24) BUT the Denizens book says that their coming of age ceremony happens exactly at their 20th birthday, therefore before their physical maturity. I would guess they have no fake ID issues.
I need an aspirin....
Last edited by Bonhumm on Fri May 18, 2018 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Relative age by race
Clearly the Namegivers studying this phenomenon have yet to come to consensus on what exactly those terms mean.Bonhumm wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:36 pmWhat does not help either is the terminology they uses. Although 'physical maturity', 'puberty', 'coming of age' and 'adult' are related, they do not mean the same thing. For example, the elves 'physical maturity' varies from one edition to another (from 'early 20s' to 'in their 20s' therefore average of 24) BUT the Denizens book says that their coming of age ceremony happens exactly at their 20th birthday, therefore before their physical maturity. I would guess they have no fake ID issues.
I need an aspirin....
Re: Relative age by race
Anyone knows if Shadowrun addressed this?
Since they are the same races and (I'm assuming) having the same life expectancy/physical maturity rate, would a 14 years old 'adult' ork be denied purchase of alcohol? Would a adolescent looking 18 years old elf be allowed to vote?
Since they are the same races and (I'm assuming) having the same life expectancy/physical maturity rate, would a 14 years old 'adult' ork be denied purchase of alcohol? Would a adolescent looking 18 years old elf be allowed to vote?
Re: Relative age by race
I don't have anything of substance to contribute at the moment (don't have the time), but I did want to say:
He was an adult in 1452 when he an J'role located Parlainth, and he was already an experienced adept. Current year is 1517, which puts him well over 65. His capsule description in the ED1 Barsaive set says "he's approaching 100, if he has not already surpassed it" (and that was several years before the ED4 "present day").
He is clearly and obviously well past "old age" for an ork. There's other stuff going on there. He's about as far from "typical" as anybody gets.
Garlthik is a... special case.
He was an adult in 1452 when he an J'role located Parlainth, and he was already an experienced adept. Current year is 1517, which puts him well over 65. His capsule description in the ED1 Barsaive set says "he's approaching 100, if he has not already surpassed it" (and that was several years before the ED4 "present day").
He is clearly and obviously well past "old age" for an ork. There's other stuff going on there. He's about as far from "typical" as anybody gets.
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Re: Relative age by race
I am unconvinced that anyone would expect mature judgement from a 16 year old Elf. The brain and personality is not going to be fully formed for another 10 or 15 years, and I think that juvenile behavior would result for all that time. Of course nobody expects mature judgement from a windling of any age, but that is another story.
For the shorter lived races, I would expect the opposite to be true. Making a comparison to a species we are more familiar with, a two year old dog is an adult dog, and we expect it to behave like one, not like a puppy. We have considerably lower expectations for the behavior of a two year old human.
From Shadowrun, my impression is that Ork's enter school a year or two earlier than humans, but most leave it much earlier than humans in order to take low paying jobs for the inadequately educated. Getting a college, or even a high school degree requires ether a much greater proportion of their lifespan, or much greater effort to cram an education into a shorter span. My impression is that Orks can much earlier get jobs, join the army, drink, etc. than humans can. A mid-teen Ork is an Adult and is legally considered one.
I would expect that nobody is going to give an Elf a job more responsible than flipping burgers until they near 30. Thus leaving plenty of time for lots of youthful trouble/leisure and/or a PhD.
So for 'Ghagin's grandchildren': An immature Elf of 20 something might have the years and experience to know something is wrong/dangerous, but lack the mature judgement to care. Being a gang member and stealing is fun and he will believe he certainly will never be caught. On the other hand a 12 year old Ork might be approaching the age when he starts to gain his mature judgement, even if he lack the years/experience to know just how dangerous his current situation is.
For the shorter lived races, I would expect the opposite to be true. Making a comparison to a species we are more familiar with, a two year old dog is an adult dog, and we expect it to behave like one, not like a puppy. We have considerably lower expectations for the behavior of a two year old human.
From Shadowrun, my impression is that Ork's enter school a year or two earlier than humans, but most leave it much earlier than humans in order to take low paying jobs for the inadequately educated. Getting a college, or even a high school degree requires ether a much greater proportion of their lifespan, or much greater effort to cram an education into a shorter span. My impression is that Orks can much earlier get jobs, join the army, drink, etc. than humans can. A mid-teen Ork is an Adult and is legally considered one.
I would expect that nobody is going to give an Elf a job more responsible than flipping burgers until they near 30. Thus leaving plenty of time for lots of youthful trouble/leisure and/or a PhD.
So for 'Ghagin's grandchildren': An immature Elf of 20 something might have the years and experience to know something is wrong/dangerous, but lack the mature judgement to care. Being a gang member and stealing is fun and he will believe he certainly will never be caught. On the other hand a 12 year old Ork might be approaching the age when he starts to gain his mature judgement, even if he lack the years/experience to know just how dangerous his current situation is.
Last edited by ChrisDDickey on Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Relative age by race
I think, and I haven't said this in, forever, we can look back to Tolkien on this. Think about how Frodo was thought of among the hobbits before he turned 33.
There is a reference in the (I think the Cara Fahd book) to an ork tribe that sends its youth at age 10 (if memory serves) to another cohort because the 'fires of Mea'a'a'a'arg' (unjort spelling) are burning and they don't want to deal with first cousin love. Then a couple of years later they were full participants of the tribe. So the get all the stages, but they are compressed. I think that while they know a 13 yo doesn't have the skills that a 30 yo does, they otherwise respect the decisions that the 13 makes for him or herself. The youth isn't allowed to plan a raid, but can to choose his or her own romantic partner or pick a fight with a thundra beast. After all, it's not like adult orks always make great decisions - that's not how they define mature behavior.
There is a reference in the (I think the Cara Fahd book) to an ork tribe that sends its youth at age 10 (if memory serves) to another cohort because the 'fires of Mea'a'a'a'arg' (unjort spelling) are burning and they don't want to deal with first cousin love. Then a couple of years later they were full participants of the tribe. So the get all the stages, but they are compressed. I think that while they know a 13 yo doesn't have the skills that a 30 yo does, they otherwise respect the decisions that the 13 makes for him or herself. The youth isn't allowed to plan a raid, but can to choose his or her own romantic partner or pick a fight with a thundra beast. After all, it's not like adult orks always make great decisions - that's not how they define mature behavior.
Re: Relative age by race
/nodsChrisDDickey wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:04 amOf course nobody expects mature judgement from a windling of any age, but that is another story.
I don't agree here. Although the 2 years old dog would act 'mature' compared to a puppy he would still act like a dog. I WOULD expect better problem solving skills from a 2 years old human than from a (untrained) dog of any age. Futhermore, at 2 years old the human is usually past the 'eat my own poop' phase.ChrisDDickey wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:04 amFor the shorter lived races, I would expect the opposite to be true. Making a comparison to a species we are more familiar with, a two year old dog is an adult dog, and we expect it to behave like one, not like a puppy. We have considerably lower expectations for the behavior of a two year old human.
That's a very interesting point. I haven't thought of the school system in my examples. Furthermore, now that I think about it, I certainly would not like to have been the lawmaker who had the draft the rules about 'age of consent' after the goblinizations.ChrisDDickey wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:04 amFrom Shadowrun, my impression is that Ork's enter school a year or two earlier than humans, but most leave it much earlier than humans in order to take low paying jobs for the inadequately educated. Getting a college, or even a high school degree requires ether a much greater proportion of their lifespan, or much greater effort to cram an education into a shorter span.
This is an excellent point as well and I think this would be match they way 'mentally handicapped' people react in our world: no matter how 'adult' the body is, no matter how many years of experience you had, if your brain is not developed enough to process it correctly you will act more 'childishly'. I guess I will have to revise how I played that. Thank you for your imputChrisDDickey wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:04 amAn immature Elf of 20 something might have the years and experience to know something is wrong/dangerous, but lack the mature judgement to care. On the other hand a 13 year old Ork might be approaching the age when he starts to gain his mature judgement, but still lack the years/experience to know just how dangerous his current situation is.
Slimcreeper wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:17 pmI think, and I haven't said this in, forever, we can look back to Tolkien on this. Think about how Frodo was thought of among the hobbits before he turned 33.
The way Frodo was thought of among the hobbits (from my point of view) was due to social conventions in a conservative society; he actions and behaviors seemed rather adult-like.
HA!Slimcreeper wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:17 pmThere is a reference in the (I think the Cara Fahd book) to an ork tribe that sends its youth at age 10 (if memory serves) to another cohort because the 'fires of Mea'a'a'a'arg' (unjort spelling) are burning and they don't want to deal with first cousin love.