NPC Only Disciplines.

Discussion on game mastering Earthdawn. May contain spoilers; caution is recommended!
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Lars Gottlieb
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NPC Only Disciplines.

Post by Lars Gottlieb » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:36 pm

So, in my campaigns, NPC's can follow a Politician discipline; there are others too - Merchant and Artisan, for instance.

None of these are truly fleshed out at the moment, but I'm working towards doing that.

This leads to two questions:
a) Would there be any interest on this forum in following along, perhaps offering some input in this?
b) Has any of you done something similar already.

Slimcreeper
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Re: NPC Only Disciplines.

Post by Slimcreeper » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:09 pm

This is what I use:
Half-adepts have access to some magic, but are untutored. Some have the potential to become adepts, but some do not and no one knows what makes the difference. They have one key skill or talent tied to their calling, such as melee weapons for a fighter, agriculture for a farmer, or physician for a healer. They can use karma on this skill, though they only gain one karma point every year and a day. Their general power is measured using half-circles, which is equal to half their key skill rank (round down). So a half-adept smith with Craftsman rank 5 is considered half-circle 2. Half-adepts add their half-circle to their Unconscious and Death ratings. They have access to half-magic like adepts do at their half-circle level. So the half-adept smith described above could use add 2 to tests to determine the make and origin of metalwork. All half-adepts know how to use raw magic to use karma on any test, and all half-adepts learn the Threadweaving talent. A half-adept may become a full adept, but it is just like adding multiple disciplines. Consequently, they tend to be much less powerful than a regular adept, even if they add full adept circles later.
You can take any key skill and make a half-adept, like Diplomacy for a Politician or Etiquette for a Noble. They are way less powerful, of course, but if I want power I just use a regular adept.

I'll give feedback on anything you post, if I think of something worthwhile.

ChrisDDickey
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Re: NPC Only Disciplines.

Post by ChrisDDickey » Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:22 am

I often pepper my descriptions and locations with references to craft and professional disciplines.

I have never fleshed any of them out fully and see little reason to ever do so, but my rule of thumb is that all the other craft disciplines are even more focused on crafts, and less capable of adventuring than a weaponsmith. They have fewer talents overall, but have craft talents that are not in the adventuring books. Most magical or elemental garments or carpets are made by Weaver adepts. Magical Pottery and Glass are made by Potter adepts, etc. They use different rules for advancement other than Legend Points.
By the same token, I consider Airsailor and Boatman to be the most combat capable and adventuresome of the Professional class adepts. Most anybody who could become a Cavalryman could instead become a Herder if they wanted to. Most Beastmasters could instead become a Husbandman. The Cultivator farms amazing amounts of food, etc.
Craft and Professional adepts tend to be fairly wealthy, even low circle adepts turn out products or effects more advanced than even masters of the skill and in a fraction of the time. However they have few or no talents suitable for the adventuring life.

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The Undying
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Re: NPC Only Disciplines.

Post by The Undying » Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:59 am

This topic kind of reminds me of the line from the animated movie The Incredibles: "When everyone is special, no one is special."

Personally, I don't see how a professional really fits as an Adept. Adepts fill a niche in the Earthdawn universe, and it doesn't really square (to me) with a motif like "I never want to be an adventurer, I just want to be a bureaucrat!!"

(Insert mental image of Futurama's Hermes Conrad singing "I was born to be a bureaucrat")

But, then again, I'm very much against the fact that Haggle is a talent (if I squint hard enough, I can see it for a Thief, but it still doesn't seem Thief-y).

The question I'd ask is "what purpose does this serve?" Is there some reason the NPC needs to be an Adept? Is there a reason the NPC even needs stats? Is there ever going to be a real question during gameplay as to why this Namegiver happens to be better than his competition (let alone why the players would jump from someone being naturally gifting in personality or thought to "magic is obviously involved")? Why can't this particular aspect of this particular community just be "magic" (hedge magic, ritual magic, spirit patronage, thread magic) instead of being a Discipline - and does it even need to be described other than a brief flavor point ("these indigenous people use a form of magic to avoid underwater hazards while navigating the rivers")? Basically, how does mechanizing this improve gameplay?

ChrisDDickey
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Re: NPC Only Disciplines.

Post by ChrisDDickey » Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:32 am

The Undying wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:59 am
Basically, how does mechanizing this improve gameplay?
Personally, I am not mechanizing this. It is a flavor element. And I agree that developing it in detail is effort probably better spent elsewhere.

And one flavor element that has stuck in my craw over hundreds of settings, is where you have an entire world that seems to revolve solely around the adventuring activities of a tiny minority. OK, I realize that each game world does in fact revolve solely around the adventuring activities of a tiny minority, in fact it actually revolves around about 6 PCs. But the world should not LOOK like it is revolving around those people, nor should it look like it is revolving around the class of people called "adventurers" that those 6 people belong to. I like to give an impression of a huge world, and that there are people out there that don't care about adventuring at all.

Developers failing to develop in detail any element that does not directly support adventuring is simply tight editing and is good. But giving the impression that all magic must revolve around adventuring or it is pointless, strikes me as wrong. Weavers exist in my version of the setting to make dwarf winternight cloaks and other fine garments. I feel they make the setting seem somewhat richer and more alive. They give it more flavor.

But the undying is totally correct that I would never bother to stat one of them beyond his circle, his inventory on hand, and his haggle step.

Lars Gottlieb
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Re: NPC Only Disciplines.

Post by Lars Gottlieb » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:42 am

Thanks for the replies guys (o:
I am not thinking about faceless bureaucrats (though something sinister and wyrmtongue-like would be possible); more the famous people - Legend Points are based on, yanno, Legend, after all.

Politicians will be surrounded by an aura that makes everybody wish to submit and obey, stronger by circle. The good ones will know how to use it without pissing people off ..

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The Undying
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Re: NPC Only Disciplines.

Post by The Undying » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:32 am

Again, for what it's worth, I think you may be overthinking things.

Legend Points (LP) are an Adept thing. A Great Dragon isn't a Great Dragon because it's achieved X-ty LP. A high Strength Rating (SR) spirit isn't high SR because it has X-ty LP. Etc, etc, etc. The fact that the user-facing advancement is "Legend Points" and not a generic "experience" highlights both the role Adepts have in the world of Earthdawn and also suggests at what their primary motivation is - to become the thing of legends. That doesn't mean everything else has to have an advancement system, let alone one based on the accumulation of LP. Great Dragons may just be born Great Dragons, and their "strength" is basically determined by age. High SR spirits (at least from the elemental side) may just come into being as they are, no advancement, no way for a low SR to eventually become a high SR.

You can have magically-empowered bureaucrats without a Bureaucrat Discipline. In fact, calling it a "Discipline" tacks on tons of baggage. For one, a Discipline shapes the way you thinking about the world - is that your intent, are Bureaucrat locked in a mindset of hierarchy and process (note we're wading into Mad Passion territory here)? It also means it's difficult for Adepts of other Disciplines to become Bureaucrats - is that your intent, that the retired Weaponsmith is ultimately never going to be as good a Bureaucrat as someone that was a Bureaucrat from the get-go? Disciplines aren't the be all and end all of magic in Earthdawn.

Lastly, I'd just advise caution on mind control stuff. Removal of player adjacency generally doesn't go over well. Preventing someone from doing something (e.g., too afraid to advance on a thing) is different that forcing someone to do a thing (e.g., cast their vote for a thing).

Lys
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Re: NPC Only Disciplines.

Post by Lys » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:40 am

ChrisDDickey wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:32 am
One flavor element that has stuck in my craw over hundreds of settings, is where you have an entire world that seems to revolve solely around the adventuring activities of a tiny minority. OK, I realize that each game world does in fact revolve solely around the adventuring activities of a tiny minority, in fact it actually revolves around about 6 PCs. But the world should not LOOK like it is revolving around those people, nor should it look like it is revolving around the class of people called "adventurers" that those 6 people belong to. I like to give an impression of a huge world, and that there are people out there that don't care about adventuring at all.

Developers failing to develop in detail any element that does not directly support adventuring is simply tight editing and is good. But giving the impression that all magic must revolve around adventuring or it is pointless, strikes me as wrong. Weavers exist in my version of the setting to make dwarf winternight cloaks and other fine garments. I feel they make the setting seem somewhat richer and more alive. They give it more flavor.
Earthdawn does not revolve around adventurers though, because adepts and adventurers are two separate things. You can be a non-adventuring adept, and you can also be a non-adept adventurer. The impression i get is that most adepts are not adventurers in the RPG sense of the word, but rather soldiers, raiders, mercenaries, artists, craftsmen, and various sorts of retainers. Additionally, the primary movers and shakers in Barsaive, the people whose decisions affect the course of history in the setting, are largely the various faction leaders not adventurers (though there are exceptions, see J'role the Honourable Thief). While nearly all of said leaders are Adepts of one stripe or another, none are currently adventurers, and very few are former adventurers. This stands to reason, as it is rather difficult to lead a kingdom, city, aropagoi, tribe, or moot while going out adventuring.

A quick survey of various books shows that the most common Disciplines among the faction leaders in Barsaive are Warrior, Troubadour, Cavalryman, and Sky Raider. There are however, a number of notable exceptions. Garlthik One-Eye the de facto leader of Kratas is a Thief. The Magistrates of Travar are a Weaponsmith turned jewler, a Swordmaster, and a non-adept merchant. Both the Chief of the Rockhorns and the Shivalahala V'strimon are Elementalists. For more minor faction leaders, the gangs of Kratas are lead by a wide assortment of Adepts, while every tribe of Cara Fahd is lead by a Cavalryman, except two minor tribes lead by Swordmasters. Finally the leaders of the Denairistas clan, and thus Iopos, are accomplished spellcasters of various types. Circle wise, most major faction leaders are Wardens, with the remainder being high Journeymen. Garlthik One-Eye is again a notable exception, since he is an extremely rare 15th Circle Adept. Also i'm ignoring secondary Disciplines, they're fairly common but not a majority.

As for stuff like common magical items, i always figured they were made by spellcaster Adepts, particularly Wizards and Elementalists. Whereas Potions and Blood Charms are the province of Wizards and Nethermancers.
Lars Gottlieb wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:42 am
Politicians will be surrounded by an aura that makes everybody wish to submit and obey, stronger by circle. The good ones will know how to use it without pissing people off.
That is a very strange ability, as no Discipline is surrounded by an aura that compels any kind of behaviour. If that were a thing Adepts can do, you would expect Warriors to have an aura that makes everybody want to follow them in battle, and Troubadours one that makes people wish to become their fans and groupies. Instead what they both have the Leadership Talent, which does inspire people to become their followers, but only if they're actively leading.

Telarus
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Re: NPC Only Disciplines.

Post by Telarus » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:31 pm

This is where I have used half-magic adepts in my previous games. I just pick a skill to serve as the core focus, and give them a Karma pool that can only be used on that skill. I think 2-3 skills would be a better model in the current edition, maybe one "Core" and 1-2 "Optional" as the half-magic adept goes up in rank in their primary skill i.e. the Jeweler half-magic adept might pick a 2nd skill when their primary, Craft (Jewlery), hits rank 3+, and a third when it hits 6+, allowing him to spend Karma on Haggle and say Avoid Blow (hey, this one operates out of Kratas). I would limit the Karma Pool to 1/2 rank in Primary Skill * Racial Karma Modifier (bam, "half-magic" adepts have access to about half the Karma that adepts of the same "Circle" do).

Also, this will totally mess with players viewing people's pattern's in astral space. "I don't know... he seems to be more magical than everyone else around him, but not as magical as your fellow Adepts." (Players *WTF*)

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