summoning

[earcaraxe]

Hi! I have a couple of questions regarding spirits and summoning (i might have missed the answers in the rulebook...)

1) How many powers does a typical spirit have? I guess it depends on the strength of the spirit, but i cant find the "function". (Im asking for the typical number, i know it varies)

2) Why is knowing the name of a spirit benefical to a summoner? I mean: why should it be considered treasure, causing joy to an elementalist to find one spirit-name in an ancient tome? To help understand the question: the benefits and every important parameter of an act of summoning depends only on the SR of the spirit. If it gets a name, its SR rises, so being able to summon a named one doesnt help in summoning a stronger spirit. (My only idea: knowing a name is the only way to summon the same one over and over again, thus bulding rapport. Am i right?)

3) page 367 not clear at all for me on summoning named spirits. Under what circumstances is the extra success needed? Only when he doesnt know the name but has a pattern item?

4) If i plan GM-ing a story around lots of invae encounters, wont the nethermancer/elementalist kill the fun by one-shoting the invae with his banish talent?

[The Undying]

I'm going to go backwards, because that's the order I'm best able to answer the things. Don't take the brevity as terseness - just trying to get to the point.

4) If i plan GM-ing a story around lots of invae encounters, wont the nethermancer/elementalist kill the fun by one-shoting the invae with his banish talent?

Two things to keep in mind. First, if an Adept attempts to Banish a spirit whose type they can't summon, then the Banish test needs an extra success. Neither Nethermancers nor Elementalists can summon invae, so the test is a tough one. Second, a failed Banish is pretty dangerous due to the Astral Backlash (I'd say excessively, punitively dangerous) - it should not be attempted lightly.

3) page 367 not clear at all for me on summoning named spirits. Under what circumstances is the extra success needed? Only when he doesnt know the name but has a pattern item?

Page 368. An extra success is ALWAYS required with Named spirits, AND the summoner must know the name OR have one of the spirit's pattern items.

2) Why is knowing the name of a spirit benefical to a summoner? I mean: why should it be considered treasure, causing joy to an elementalist to find one spirit-name in an ancient tome? To help understand the question: the benefits and every important parameter of an act of summoning depends only on the SR of the spirit. If it gets a name, its SR rises, so being able to summon a named one doesnt help in summoning a stronger spirit. (My only idea: knowing a name is the only way to summon the same one over and over again, thus bulding rapport. Am i right?)

You kinda get both exactly what you expect with a Named spirit, and they are usually stronger spirits. Keep in mind that "stronger" is relative - it could mean higher stats for their Strength Rating (SR), more powers than average for their SR, unique knowledge, etc. As for why someone would want to summon a Named spirit, I'm the wrong person to ask - I am NOT a fan of 4ED summoning, and the idea of the system just tacking on a requirement for an extra success for something that is rare and the characters already went out of their way for (to get Name or pattern item) doesn't make me like it more. Unless there's an EXCEPTIONALLY BIG reason I'd need that Named spirit, I'd much rather go with a rando.

1) How many powers does a typical spirit have? I guess it depends on the strength of the spirit, but i cant find the "function". (Im asking for the typical number, i know it varies)

Check some of the spirit enemies/templates available.

[earcaraxe]

thanks!

4) i forgot about the backlash, problem solved!

3) GM guide, page 367, under "Named Spirits", 4. and 5. sentences. First it says summoning named spirits requires an extra success then "if the summoner knows the spirits name, this restriction doesnt apply". I guess it means, the extra success isnt needed if the summoner knows not only the name (or has a pattern item) but the "true name". Doesnt it?

2) Thanks, i will probably play it that way. But does what u wrote follow from the rules?

[The Undying]

I have zero practical experience with Named spirits, so probably better for someone else to chime in here.

I'm unfamiliar with the concept of a True Name in Earthdawn. Naming is important, it's the scaffolding upon which complex patterns are built. The Name one takes or is given becomes an intimate pattern of one's pattern, and to truly Re-Name basically destroys the pattern that was. Without a Re-Naming, I'd assume all Names for a thing refer to the same pattern, and are equally powerful, regardless of whether it was the first Name.

However, that starts bleeding into how Names and Naming works, which I don't think ever is (or really needs to be) defined. Naming is so significant it is often done as a ritual, but I don't believe it would NEED to be. Is there a line between conscious Naming and just specific reference (King Floopybottom the Ninety-First versus the king of Dookstown)? Is there a line between conscious Naming and the consistent use of a term before it becomes a Name (think Harry Potter and "he who must not be named")? Intimacy is definitely not required to Name, but is proximity (I can be in a grove and Name it Murkland, but can I be thousands of miles away, think of it, and Name it Murkland)? What about knowledge (I've heard of this weirdo unique spider thing - can I Name it Sr Sillylegs)?

[Slimcreeper]

Earcaraxe, 3) is how I read it. Let's say you know there is a powerful spirit guarding a mountain stream and you need to know the source of the contamination that threatens the water supply of the towns downstream. The GM knows but the character only suspects that the spirit is Named. Extra success. The character earns the trust of the elf recluse who lives on the mountain and learns the spirit's True Name. No extra success.

[The Undying]

@Slim

I could be wrong (like I said, no practical experience), but I don't think that's the intent. My understanding of summoning is you have three choices: rando, something you summoned before, or Named. You can't say "I think there's a water spirit in that lake, so I'm going to try to summon it so I can ask if anyone drank from here recently." You either summon a water spirit specifically with local knowledge (a power) or a Named spirit that would have the necessary knowledge. Entirely separately, the summoner could wander around, using half magic sensing in the area, and talk to local spirits (doesn't require summoning).

I'd have to wave the bullsh*t flag HIGH overhead on a GM failing a player summoning because the thing they summoned ended up being Named. "Bad news, Jon - you made a success on your summoning test, but either I or the random encounter table says the spirit you got was Named, so actually you failed; please roll Astral Backlash."

[Slimcreeper]

I think of the spirits as populating certain areas. I wouldn't spring a Named Spirit out of nowhere, but if you are at the headwaters of the Tylon River it's a safe bet. It's a support the narrative situation. If you are just summoning a spirit for the services, it wouldn't come up. However, a Nethermancer might have a harder time summoning an Ally Spirit in a place where no one has ever lived (I know they are not all "ghosts", but I don't imagine them hanging out in places where there isn't much magical activity), and Named Fire Spirits are going to hang around active volcanoes and forest fires.

[The Undying]

I think your threshold might be too low. Yes, concentrations or especially strong instances of an element tend to call to elemental spirits, but I don't think that's significant enough for Named spirits. Keep in mind there are plenty of Fire Elementals to contend with around Death's Sea, but I strongly doubt more than one or two are named. Similar situation with Air Elementals among the jagged peaks of the mountains. A spark of intense heat, or an unusual fire, may catch the notice of local Fire Elementals, but probably not Named.

A volcano is a good example of where there is likely ONE Named Fire Elemental and ONE Named Earth Elemental. They exist in the caldera and are what make the volcano do volcano things. There are likely dozens, maybe hundreds, of other elementals, some of which are very likely extremely powerful, but very low chance they'd be Named.

It all goes back to how and why Names exist. Naming is important and not done lightly. Something of significance needs to be involved before a Namegiver would consider Naming. Not all strong spirits have names. It's entirely possible (I'd say probable) that there are spirits that exist whose power far exceeds nearly any known Named spirit. It's the attention and interest of a Namegiver that elicits the Name.

A strong Fire spirit that appears near a forest fire? Dollars to donuts it's not Named, unless it's a Fire of apocalyptic proportions. A local Fire spirit that is known to come stoke existing forest fires on the area? I could see a Name here, if it comes frequently enough (maybe just shy of 100% of the time). A local Fire spirit that is RESPONSIBLE for most of the local forest fires (either directly starting them or jumping at the chance to stoke controlled flames into dangerous situations)? Oooohh yeah, that's Pyro Joe, be careful of any fires you start on the JoobaJooba plain. Joe doesn't even need to be a "strong" spirit, he just has the amazing ability to sense a Fire of any intensity anywhere on the JoobaJooba, something nearly unheard of in perceptive range for his SR. Joe can also get around the JoobaJooba faster than anyone else because he's figured out shortcuts that rely on spacial differences between the Plane of Fire and the physical realm - an incredible service to barter for, if you can stand the rigor of passages through the Plane of Fire.