TMD- and buffing

Discussion on game mastering Earthdawn. May contain spoilers; caution is recommended!
Lys
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Re: TMD- and buffing

Post by Lys » Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:06 am

Calamrin wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:51 pm
Nice tale, sounds like an epic fight
Yeah, we were in Claw Ridge and staying at the house of one of High Chief Krathis Gron's agents/diplomats. We had captured the cultist leader, a Swordmaster named Saret Quickblade, after we counter-ambushed his ambush at a seedy bar. Stormbreaker personally duelled and killed him while fending off three of his goons. Then we brought him back to life and took him home for interrogation. The rest of the cult was rather keen on taking him back, so they came looking for us with the Nethermancer Serpent and her Wizard buddy, whom Saret had hired. Now the house was made of stone, and the lower windows had been barred, so we had a pretty good defensive position, but i figured unless we took out those casters, we were at a disadvantage, hence the deep strike. The rest of the group thinks it was reckless foolishness on my part, not the first time we've had that disagreement, but i'm convinced it won us the battle.

As the cultist-assassins retreated they took the unconscious Stormbreaker with them as a hostage. While i was really hoping the rest of the group wouldn't be able to rescue her right away, because it would be more fun that way, the Unbroken went tearing after her. She woke up in her bedroom with her wounds treated and no knowledge she'd even been captured. Though she was pretty unhappy when they told her they'd rescued her, "Passions, you guys have no sense of drama! You should have given them a head start until morning!"

I still think the numbers against the casters is harsh for little reason. I agree buff before u fight, or dont prat about doing it in combat much.... its very frustrating buffing before though, below 5th circle, when you have 2 casters...you can only weave one extra thread so if you cast extra targets they last less than a minute...or if u cast duration to minutes on everyone individually it takes forever rolling with failures.....at 5th when can weave 2 threads is much better.
It probably helps if you play it fast and loose with the spell durations. Like with Rank 3 Spellcasting Air Armour lasts a minimum of 8 turns, most combats are resolved within 5 turns in my experience, so 8 turns should do for the great majority of battles. But what about the time between when you cast and when you roll initiative? Well we just... kind of ignore it.

You see with my group, we started playing with 3rd Edition then moved to 4th at 5th Circle, and in 3rd Edition Air Armour lasts Rank+5 Minutes by default. So when we switched editions, we'd gotten used to not caring about the duration of the spell, because it was always going to be "way longer than the fight will actually last". It also made it easier to cast if we even thought there was going to be trouble ahead. Though on the flip side, there was no option at the time to cast it on multiple targets, so we would in fact roll for every single character, sometimes multiple times. These days the Elementalist just weaves one extra thread for multiple targets, and doesn't bother with a second extra thread to extend the duration to minutes, because nobody is actualy keeping track of the turns. It always just lasts until the end of our next fight.

If your GM is unwilling to be loose like that, my recommendation is to weave the one thread to make the duration be minutes instead of turns, and then just roll for everybody. It doesn't take that long, just keep rolling until there's enough successful rolls to cover everyone. Like i said it's what we did in 3rd Ed.
I know air armour isnt unbelievable but at lower circles when a casters physical defense is about 7-8, and his phys armour 4-5...that +3 saves a lot of wounds...especially as most casters dont have massive toughness....so i hope u can see why i think its a bit silly its so much tougher for them to be able to get buff effects to work on them.
It occurs to me that the size of the group may alter experience. The more frontline combatants you have the more viable it becomes to actually hold a line to protect the spellcasters. Consequently in my game casters are very rarely injured, because they hang back and let everyone else take the damage. So my experience is that if the casters are getting hit, something has gone terribly wrong. That said, you even with a small group you might get some milage out of letting your Warrior and Thief range a bit forward of the Elementalist and Wizard. Let the tankier characters tank more.

Another thing you can do is spend Karma, you recover the entire pool every Karma Ritual, so there's quite a lot to go around. Novice caster may have Spellcasting Step 12 and Mystic Defence 10, while a Novice Warrior is likely to have Mystic Defence 7 or 8. If the spellcaster self-buffs with Karma he'll succeed 87% of the time, while if he buffs the Warrior without karma he'll succeed 79% or 85% of the time. That's pretty close to equivalent. Additionally, if you use Karma and the extra thread for bonus targets, you're extremely likely to get everyone in one go.

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The Undying
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Re: TMD- and buffing

Post by The Undying » Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:53 am

@Lys

Obsidiman Warriors make great walls, positively in the sense they can can stand up to a lot of damage and make incredible blocks for small opens but negatively in the sense that they have about the same mobility. :D Basically, everything out-moves them. At least in my experience, opening up more distance between the Obsidiman Warrior and The Squishies can be dangerous: any enemy that gets a mind to do so is easily going to move past the tank and have one or more turns of open season on the back line. Always depends on the environment, though.

A defensive line doesn't help much against Ranged and Physical-damage spells, either. Plus, with just the one tank, and MAYBE one hybrid (dunno how Calamrin's thief handles combat), there's no way to distract at-range pressure that's hitting past the tank.

It sounds neat having a lot of players to control the battlegrounds, but it's an incredibly different story with a handful of players.

Lys
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Re: TMD- and buffing

Post by Lys » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:59 am

Yeah, like i said, groups size alters experience. It seems to me that for a four person group, you really should only have one spellcaster. Of the remaining three one needs to be a combat specialist, one should be utility, and the last one can be either. That way you can reliably form a three man line behind which can stand the spellcaster. That said, you shouldn't let ideal group composition limit players in what they want to play, but they're going to be more creative in how they approach problems to make up for it. Trying to shoehorn an Elementalist into the tank role honestly isn't going to work very well, even if you let them get buffs off more reliably.

Calamrin
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Re: TMD- and buffing

Post by Calamrin » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:13 pm

May as well share a bit of group background. Like i said at some point we are a group of friends who known each other since we were kids, and played on and off for like 25 years....so a meeting these days involves a meal a few beers and a good laugh.
This earthdawn campaign has been more roleplaying/exploring world/ discovering people and places than it has been combat orientated...lots of information finding, sneaking, finding information, political intrigue, social skills.

I say this as we all play whatever takes our fancy...so it just fell that it was wizard elementalist warrior thief (obviously with some discussion!)

Dwarf wizard is the brains. Scholar type, loads of knowledge... he also fell in telling the tale and doing social stuff.. we are finding they can do that pretty damn well with certain spells/talents.
Obsidiman warrior.... well hes an obsidiman warrior!
Thief, well shes all throwing weapons, sneaking and surprise striking
My Dwarven elementalist, is a grumpy, foul mouthed, hot head, who likes a good drink, a good meal and a good smoke....Underneath hes a heart of gold (in the small town we are in at the moment hes set up a free hospice to treat the sick) Hes not a scholar, more a raw nature and elements guy ( for example gets up every morning at dawn, builds a fire and gets naked and has a good scrub, and sing (badly) for half an hour not caring who sees him doing it)...so hes a bit of a nutter and very protective of others.

Anyway i said all that, to show hes not going to shy from jumping into the fray to protect the wizard or thief...and he doesnt mind being rubbish at it and getting a beating....its more roleplaying than effectiveness thing.

I know it an odd choice but hes not that terrible taking a beating at lower circles:
-he has 19 toughness (was 17...first 2 stats ive put up....perception next)
7 recovery tests a day normally (4 natural +2 fireheal +1 group pattern item)
Can water elemental spear himself and get instant +2 recovery test...i can spend karma on recovery tests... so thats 2d8 +d6
got barkskin
Got avoid blow as an alt talent
Self only buff that puts up avoid blow....not cast that prolly only would in emergencies
WT 12 +5 hide armour +3 air armour....takes 20 damage to wound him.
Will prolly get fireblood at 6th if i live that long (want enhanced matrix at 5)

Sorry this all a bit off topic about TMD and buffs, but Lys and Undying shared some background so thought should explain a bit myself)

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The Undying
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Re: TMD- and buffing

Post by The Undying » Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:49 pm

All glory to angry dwarfs!!!

If you aren't running a Desperate Spell blood charm, it's worth considering. Despite the low durability of a magician, seems like you've got some health rating to spare, along with a pretty deep pot of recovery tests. It's not a perfect solution to the self-buffing problem, but that +6 is nice to have when you really want that spell to land (whether it's buff or something else). They're reusable as well, although you have to heal the damage first (which is where the deep pot of recovery tests comes in). It stacks with Karma, too, if you want to throw everything you have at it.

Lys
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Re: TMD- and buffing

Post by Lys » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:15 am

Okay i guess you can make a tanky Elementalist, i'm impressed. You may want to consider seeking the services of a Weaponsmith, a +5 to your armour that lasts a year and a day will go a long way toward increasing your hardiness against damage.

Calamrin
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Re: TMD- and buffing

Post by Calamrin » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:55 pm

I will definitely get the Desperate blood charm.... thx for that undying...its a good roleplaying/combat situational variation that can make a difference... i can imagine myself getting angry at a critical moment and just blowing off a massive spell)

My GM has kind of made the availability of forged armour limited, and kept the wealth of the party pretty low so far. (various reasons...one which was the last system we did it got totally out of hand with power/money and very messy!)

But i will if i get chance. (naughty off topic question....if u get pattern item armour, can u enhance that...im assuming not?)

Anyway back on topic, i think the GM will make some house modification to MD and buffs...what i dont know... but he has read this thread.

So thx Undying, Lys and Dougansf for your opinions and views on it.

Dougansf
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Re: TMD- and buffing

Post by Dougansf » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:02 pm

Calamrin wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:55 pm
I will definitely get the Desperate blood charm.... thx for that undying...its a good roleplaying/combat situational variation that can make a difference... i can imagine myself getting angry at a critical moment and just blowing off a massive spell)
My magician in my old ED1 game had one of these for a long time. Very handy in a pinch. And you can reuse it in the same combat if you have Fireblood.
Calamrin wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:55 pm
But i will if i get chance. (naughty off topic question....if u get pattern item armour, can u enhance that...im assuming not?)
Yes, you can use Forge Armor on Threaded Armor. :D
Calamrin wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:55 pm
Anyway back on topic, i think the GM will make some house modification to MD and buffs...what i dont know... but he has read this thread.

So thx Undying, Lys and Dougansf for your opinions and views on it.
Happy to help, good luck.

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The Undying
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Re: TMD- and buffing

Post by The Undying » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:50 pm

Hungry is good, regarding money. It makes even mundane purchases feel interesting and valuable, and it helps make cuts and scrapes from combat, as well as strain accumulation, more meaning.

I'm not sure how much energy your GM is willing to put into general investigation, but I highly recommend s/he take the time and at least get familiar with what Panda's Gaming Grove has by way of material. Great resources for challenges found in different environments, challenge-tiered stock Namegiver NPCs, commentary on old Thread Items, etc. The latter, commentary on Thread Items, I would dare say should be mandatory reading for any GM using old source books - some of those items are just game warping or likely to cause player jealousy, things you'll stumble into without some forethought. You, as a player, should only read that if it's the nature of your table/game to have deep player knowledge (I, personally, love the discovery aspect of Earthdawn, so less information is important). Any of the "Anatomy of a [Discipline]" stuff is fair game, though, as it helps a player better understand the roles, capabilities, and flavor of the Disciplines.

Anyways, glad we were of help. There's a lot of information on the forum, though it can be a bit hard to find sometimes. I don't think anyone has complained about people asking a question that's already been covered before - not like there's that much action here - so if you or the GM have questions and can't find an answer easily, definitely fire away.

The last real on-topic thing I can think to mention is a reminder of the Aggressive Attack combat option. It's the closest to a Rules As Written (RAW) "I choose to lower my TMD" option as you can get. It lowers both your Physical and Mystic Defense by 3 for the round while increase your attack (and maybe damage?) by 3 in return. There's a strain cost, 1 or 2, can't remember. The "intended" benefit isn't really helpful for you, but the side effect is in when targeting yourself. If your GM is looking for a house rule, that's likely a good place to start along the lines of:
  • Make a Magic-focused variety. Honestly, this should exist anyways IMHO. Probably same trade-off: -3 PD/MD,
    +3 Spellcasting/Effect test (although it MUST be an effect test).
  • Allow this 'mechanic' to be used out-of-combat. This one's a bit twisty, but it seems reasonable. Dropping down to MD 2/3, which I believe was the old mechanic, is likely way too much. Even dropping down to 6, which is a pretty common default target for talents/abilities, also seems like too much. However, a relative drop of 3? Doesn't feel game-warping and basically already exists. A variety of tables twist situations to exploit mechanics (e.g., mock-fighting to trigger Fireblood) - my opinion is to just allow it without the tomfoolery (as in this "lower TMD by 3" situation) if you're going to allow it with the tomfoolery.

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Mataxes
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Re: TMD- and buffing

Post by Mataxes » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:18 am

It just occurred to me that another - and pretty easy - way to handle it is to use a mechanic already in place for a few talents.

Against a willing target, buff spells go against the target MD, but always score at least one success. This allows the good rolls to still be good and provide bonuses, but doesn't penalize bad ones.

As an added note: There will be an official (optional rule in the Companion about lowering defenses/casting against willing targets. There are a couple of options we're looking at (and may include more than one), so final version hasn't been locked down yet.
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