Extra optional talents

[Lys]

i do like that in theory Lys....but its a massive game change if i read u right...it weakens skills,and you can pickup cool talents left right and centre...many of which are awesome........plus can spend karma on them....its a big change.

It's not really that big of a change. We actually only instituted the rule after we'd hit Circle 5, and the overall feel of the game is still pretty similar, but indisputably better. It's like wearing clothes that are too tight and restrictive, and then exchanging them for something more comfortable, you just feel more free and relaxed. Just wish we'd also adopted the Use All Talents to Advance rule, so there's not need to invest on useless talents like Heartening Laugh. Additionally this rule somewhat weakens multi-disciplining. With a deeper talent pool available at your first discipline there's a lot less pressure to pick up a second one, which i feel is a positive change because by default multi-disciplining is so strong there's little incentive not to do it.

[Calamrin]

i do like that in theory Lys....but its a massive game change if i read u right...it weakens skills,and you can pickup cool talents left right and centre...many of which are awesome........plus can spend karma on them....its a big change.

It's not really that big of a change. We actually only instituted the rule after we'd hit Circle 5, and the overall feel of the game is still pretty similar, but indisputably better. It's like wearing clothes that are too tight and restrictive, and then exchanging them for something more comfortable, you just feel more free and relaxed. Just wish we'd also adopted the Use All Talents to Advance rule, so there's not need to invest on useless talents like Heartening Laugh. Additionally this rule somewhat weakens multi-disciplining. With a deeper talent pool available at your first discipline there's a lot less pressure to pick up a second one, which i feel is a positive change because by default multi-disciplining is so strong there's little incentive not to do it.

I agree with it really, and see no reason not to do it with the right group.

Having said that though, i do like players having to make difficult decisions on what direction they go, and using skills to flesh out areas. Also like the way the rules mean one version of a namegiver class is often very different to another in what they can do.

Ive not fully read the multi discipline rules in detail, but i know our GM will make it very hard to do/if possible....let me explain.

We have 4 players, one casual, 2 into the roleplaying, fleshing out more diverse abilities, and one hard core "optimiser"....last campaign was using pathfinder, and fell apart when the "optimiser" got so powerful encounters became a joke.... i dont know if u know the system but when you get to the point when gm makes encounters and to hit the guy on a 19, he has to roll a 2 on everyone else (plus can cast priest spells, and wizard spells and have best saves by at least 5, as well as most attacks and most damage by huge numbers)

Anyway im rambling on, but i hope you can see why whilst i like the way you play it, im cautious of how it can be "optimised" in our group

[Lys]

Pathfinder is a deeply flawed system that is very easy to break if you know what you're doing. If not reined in a ruthless optimizer will exploit those flaws and absolutely wreck party and encounter balance. So yeah i can see how you'd all be cautious after that experience. The thing to keep in mind though is that this kind of optimization is harder to do in Earthdawn, as the base system is much more robust, its high end maths are better thought out, and the approach that all PC classes are magic does a lot to avoid caster supremacy. Additionally due to the Fibonacci sequence of LP costs and a general approach of curbing bonus stacking, multi-disciplining tends to increase the breadth of adept power more than the depth. That is to say multi-discipline characters tend to gain more areas of competence rather than becoming hypercompetent at what they already do.

[Calamrin]

Lys that makes me feel a lot better about the future.

One of the reasons for picking earthdawn this time around was exactly that reason.... that its harder to break!

The other was that we had also played second edition (and loved it), as well as a huge shadowrun campaign, where the world overlapped....the source books and background is second to none.

I may have to go look and see if the dumpshock forums still exist!

[Purplefixer]

and one hard core "optimiser"....last campaign was using pathfinder, and fell apart when the "optimiser" got so powerful encounters became a joke.... i dont know if u know the system but when you get to the point when gm makes encounters and to hit the guy on a 19, he has to roll a 2 on everyone else (plus can cast priest spells, and wizard spells and have best saves by at least 5, as well as most attacks and most damage by huge numbers)

This isn't possible unless someone has made an error. Pathfinder is my system of choice, and the only way for this to happen is if someone is using Third Party supplements or 3.5 rules, AND the GM has made a mistake. By the time you get past L10 the characters are understandably superheroes, and while it's possible to suddenly take on encounters 3-4 levels higher than normal once a day, the game has its own series of balances that keep things from getting out of hand. In my experience third party supplements -always- break the gameplay, usually because they are untested or poorly written.

Earthdawn, on the other hand, has a built in means by which to limit the growth of characters. The Fibbonaci Spiral built into the games LP costs means that you're always stretching a little further to make your next goal, no matter what that goal might be. Picking up a second discipline is a bit easier after C5, but a third is always going to be relatively expensive, and the 4+ disciplines are crazy costly. When humans want a bonus talent, they have to double-cost it, paying for a talent to be ALLOWED to take an additional talent (Versatility) and then paying the increased legend cost to take their V-talents by paying them UP one spot on the Spiral cost table.

Giving everyone the ability to take their optional talents willy-nilly really feels like kicking the humans in the teeth, and they seem the least favored choice as it is. (Like in Shadowrun, people look at you like you're crazy when you decide to play humie.)