Monster Challenge

[Dougansf]

I'm starting to run without a module to guide me. I'm having some trouble finding the sweet spot to challenge my group.

According to the Creature chapter, a Challenge Circle 4 should be a fair 1:1 fight with a Circle 4 PC (with some give and take for the PC in question). There's also a mention about some creatures being a Challenge for more than 1 PC, but I'm not seeing any (even Dragons).

[etherial]

I'm starting to run without a module to guide me. I'm having some trouble finding the sweet spot to challenge my group.

According to the Creature chapter, a Challenge Circle 4 should be a fair 1:1 fight with a Circle 4 PC (with some give and take for the PC in question). There's also a mention about some creatures being a Challenge for more than 1 PC, but I'm not seeing any (even Dragons).

It feels like half your post is missing, but let's clarify one thing first. There are no 1:1 fair fights. A Challenge Circle 4 should be an interesting challenge for most Circle 4 PCs. The PC should win. Now sometimes the Creature will have a particular Strength that beats the PC's particular Weakness, but in general, if you want a fair fight, you have to bump the Creature's power.

Some creatures will require more than one adept working together in order to provide a fair challenge, which will be noted in the description.

ED3 did try to have some Creature descriptions that were 1 Creature per 2 PCs or 1 Creature per Group, but I believe ED4 tried to move away from that.

What have you thrown against your PCs so far and how has it gone?

[Dougansf]

Yeah, I'm never quite sure how much is too much for the starting of a thread. So I err on the side of brevity.

I'm mainly basing my understanding on this:

It represents what Circle adept would find the creature a fair challenge in a one-on one fight. This is not a precise measurement, as different groups will find different challenges more or less difficult. Some creatures will require more than one adept working together in order to provide a fair challenge, which will be noted in the description.

I've also tried the calculation of averages explained in Balancing Encounters on page 246.

When I was running Ardanyans Revenge, they were 3rd Circle, which felt a little high in some places. They mostly walked through the town watch.

Now that they're 4th Circle, have some thread items and other loot, I wanted to give them a more challenging fight. So I threw a 1:1 group of Ogres (Challenge 4) at them. They were able to drop 2 of the Ogres, but 2 of the PC's died in the process. That's a little TOO fair.

I think some of this is due to rolls, some due to PC tactics, and some due to improper scaling. I'm trying to nail down the part I can control, the scaling.

[etherial]

Now that they're 4th Circle, have some thread items and other loot, I wanted to give them a more challenging fight. So I threw a 1:1 group of Ogres (Challenge 4) at them. They were able to drop 2 of the Ogres, but 2 of the PC's died in the process. That's a little TOO fair.

I think some of this is due to rolls, some due to PC tactics, and some due to improper scaling. I'm trying to nail down the part I can control, the scaling.

Which PCs dropped and why? Are they dead-dead or only mostly dead? Was there a point where the Ogres could have made a tactically unsound decision that could have lessened their effectiveness? Did they have a weakness the PCs failed to notice or exploit?

[Slimcreeper]

You could err on the light side and have the bad guys call for back-up. When it was clear the guards were out of their league, one blows a horn and they bolt in the direction of the garrison or towards the next patrol.

[Dougansf]

Which PCs dropped and why? Are they dead-dead or only mostly dead? Was there a point where the Ogres could have made a tactically unsound decision that could have lessened their effectiveness? Did they have a weakness the PCs failed to notice or exploit?

Warrior and Wizard. Not far beyond Death Rating, but not getting up without a Salve. Which they weren't going to get the time for.
The Warrior dropped after holding off 2 Ogres for most of the combat by going defensive. But eventually they got 2 lucky hits in.
The Wizard got a little too close, and forgot to move to maintain distance.

There was a moment when an Ogre had a choice between charging the Wizard or the Archer. The Archer was just out of reach, so he went for the Wizard, and killed him. In retrospect, I should've had the Ogre "waste" his turn chasing the Archer.

The PC's took a few attempts at the Ogres low MD and SD. However, their few attempts rolled badly, so they gave up. They didn't make any Knowledge checks to determine other weaknesses. No Creature Analysis available in the group.

UPDATE:
As an experiment, I encouraged them to "go back to save point," spend their money (allowing Forge Weapon and Armor) and a few more LPs on their new Thread Items. Then they fought a single Ogre, he got off one attack, which missed, and he was dead before his second turn.

We then did a separate encounter with 2 Ogres. This lasted a bit longer, the Ogres hit a few times, but failed to do damage.

Plenty of Karma and Strain were spent. The PCs worked in tandem much better, stacking debuffs (Distract + Mind Dagger resulted in -4 PD at one point).

Extrapolating from this, I think they could take 3 as a decent, if resource intensive, fight. The original 4 Ogre and 1 pair of Ogre Twins is probably still too much.

[etherial]

Extrapolating from this, I think they could take 3 as a decent, if resource intensive, fight. The original 4 Ogre and 1 pair of Ogre Twins is probably still too much.

Well, Ogre Twins are a Fifth Circle Challenge, so that may have contributed to your problem. What is the party makeup? Is the Warrior the only Heavy? How is their Wood Skin/Avoid Blow?

[Dougansf]

Well, Ogre Twins are a Fifth Circle Challenge, so that may have contributed to your problem. What is the party makeup? Is the Warrior the only Heavy? How is their Wood Skin/Avoid Blow?

When I was planning for it, I forgot to include BOTH Twins in my calculations. Ironically, they didn't contribute to the situation much at all, because one Twin was tied up on the Warrior on Defensive Stance. Never got hit, never swapped bodies.

Party make up is:
Warrior 4
Beastmaster 4
Wizard 4
Archer 4
Thief 4 / Swordmaster 2