Belenus wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:10 am
So far you are correct, but!
As described in "True to Form" on p. 297 f. in the Players Guide, each living/magical thing has a structure as well. And this structure exists in the astral realm, normally being part of the imprint.
And this structure (sometimes called pattern as well) can be "altered" by astral beings, which will effect the physical body as well.
Now you could start an additional discussion what "altered" means.. I see it like this:
It exists in the astral plane, can be interacted with and therefore it is quite easy to destroy (same as spirits are nothing else than a living structure in the astral plane).
What is far more difficult is to modify the structure, increasing it's power, change of its form (like reverting the Blood Wood back to being the Wyrm Wood), etc.
The problem we are having is that the "True to Form" section (nor any other section) does not say any of that.
It says (in the previous section) "Namegivers have True Patterns" and in True to Form it says "A living thing’s astral imprint reflects its pattern". It does not say (or even imply) "And this structure exists in the astral realm, normally being part of the imprint." It does not say that. Anywhere.
It does not say that "this structure (sometimes called pattern as well) can be 'altered' by astral beings, which will effect the physical body as well." It says that a namegivers pattern can be altered by "extremely powerful magic". It does not say or even imply that this alteration is done by astral beings or on the astral plane. It just says altering the pattern directly requires "extremely powerful magic".
This whole topic can be clarified by closely reading sections of the players guild. Starting on page 204, the whole Astral Space section is worth re-reading for this discussion. The subsections "The Nature of Astral Space" and "The Astral Landscape" are worth reviewing but are not strictly necessary to this discussion. The one quote I will bother with is "everything in the physical world possesses an astral imprint that reflects the physical object’s pattern.", which indicates that a physical objects pattern exists in the physical world, and the astral imprint is merely a reflection of that.
The section "Astral and Physical Forms" (page 206) is vital to understand. It starts with the words "All living things and inanimate objects exist in either astral or physical form. " and slowly walks the reader through physical forms, astral forms, how they are separate and how hard for one to interact with the other. And the concept that some very exceptionally powerful and difficult to kill horrors are duel-natured, with both physical and astral forms that can affect ether astral or physical space. When I started collecting quotes to debunk the idea that a physical being had their pattern on the Astral plane, I realized that I was getting ready to quote about 80% of the text in this section. So please, re-read this section. It will clarify that physical beings exist solely upon the physical plane. The Astral Imprint is merely a reflection. And if you ever do meet a namegiver on the physical plane that has an "Astral Structure" as well, then call your friendly neighborhood Horror Stalker, because it is a duel-natured Horror.
Also vital to understanding of this subject is "Astral Imprints" on the next page. It has a lot of good information, including that the Imprints of living beings have "Substance" on the astral plane, and astral beings may not pass through them. It clarifies that the Imprint, Aura's, and Patterns of physical beings are reflections of things in the physical plane, even if Aura's and Patterns are not normally visible on the physical plane. They are reflections of things on the physical plane, visible (but not physically, or even astrally present) on the astral plane. Don't get confused by the statements that Astral beings also have bodies, auras and patterns upon the Astral Plane.
The "True to Form" section (next page) is also vital. It says that "A living thing’s astral imprint reflects its pattern". Note that it says "reflects its pattern", not "is" or "contains its pattern". It absolutely positively does not say "It exists in the astral plane, can be interacted with and therefore it is quite easy to destroy". Instead it says "Altering the pattern of a living thing in this way requires extremely powerful magic". It does not say it would be easier to alter it from the Astral plane.
So to sum up my positions:
A namegivers pattern is not an "astral structure", and in fact does not exist on the astral realm at all, its reflection is merely visible there.
Beings on the physical plane can't normally interact with creatures on other planes, though the developers have given us at least three ways that they may do so.
Beings on the astral plane can't normally interact with creatures on the physical plane. Manifesting is one way, and there are statements that "magic spells or powers" might provide other ways, however Devs have not specified any of these magic spells or powers. GMs are free to come up with their own, but there is no official way except Manifest.