Replacement Talent for Haggle

Discussion on game mastering Earthdawn. May contain spoilers; caution is recommended!
ragbasti
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Re: Replacement Talent for Haggle

Post by ragbasti » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:23 pm

I take it back then, apparently read it wrong.
Still, the talents fits thematically, even if it is flawed

Slimcreeper
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Re: Replacement Talent for Haggle

Post by Slimcreeper » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:09 pm

I rather wish it worked something like:

the silver mug is 50
I'll give you 25
[roll]
you're taking money out the mouth of my kids, but I can accept 40
It's not worth a copper more than 25, but I like you so I'll offer 30
[roll]
I don't know how you sleep at night, 30 it is, would you like me to fill it with my family's tears before you take it with you?

I don't know what the actual mechanics would need to look like that don't involve needing calculators at the table. I've never felt the need to rewrite it or anything, it's not terrible. Maybe just accepting calculators is the answer, because then you can get to some fun things. If it had a little gambling to it, where you could risk more or less based on your skill and how lucky you felt, that might be fun. But it's probably going to be a one person minigame so it needs to be fast.

Alternately, you could make it a flat modifier. ±1% per rank to all transactions over a certain value perhaps. I do let people subtract their Haggle Rank from their monthly living expenses in silver.
Or you could make it pretty fast by picking the discount you want in 5% increments. The TN varies by Availability and Location. Each use takes an hour. If you hit the TN you get the discount, if you miss you pay full price or don't buy at all. One roll, so it plays fast. Only works on a single item or a single batch of loot. For example, you could sell a chest of jewels or all the broadswords you looted off some bandits. You can only use it for minimum starting price purchases based on the location.
Then if it's used against an individual merchant in a shopping scene use the Favor mechanics that already exist. Although the merchant doesn't by default require the Favors to be repaid. 5% discount is a small favor, 10% is a large favor. If the player fails, then the merchant can make a Haggle test against the player.

just spitballing here.

Sharkforce
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Re: Replacement Talent for Haggle

Post by Sharkforce » Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:58 pm

so, as I understand it, the line about haggle stopping when either person fails means that *that* person cannot keep trying. if you keep on succeeding, you can keep on racking up successes. I can certainly agree that it isn't clear, however.

that said, it won't help you that much with fencing stolen goods, either. the "cost" that is increased or decreased by 5% is the amount you're selling the thing for, which in this case is 10% of the book price. so if you have 100 sp worth of stuff, which you're selling for 10 sp because you are fencing stolen goods, and you win a haggle test, that is worth an extra 5 copper, not an extra 5 silver.

ragbasti
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Re: Replacement Talent for Haggle

Post by ragbasti » Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:09 am

Sharkforce wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:58 pm
so, as I understand it, the line about haggle stopping when either person fails means that *that* person cannot keep trying. if you keep on succeeding, you can keep on racking up successes. I can certainly agree that it isn't clear, however.
That's how I understood it but didn't have my book handy to confirm.
that said, it won't help you that much with fencing stolen goods, either. the "cost" that is increased or decreased by 5% is the amount you're selling the thing for, which in this case is 10% of the book price. so if you have 100 sp worth of stuff, which you're selling for 10 sp because you are fencing stolen goods, and you win a haggle test, that is worth an extra 5 copper, not an extra 5 silver.
That is not my interpretation. If you succeed then it's 15% of the price and so on.

Sharkforce
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Re: Replacement Talent for Haggle

Post by Sharkforce » Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:14 am

ragbasti wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:09 am
Sharkforce wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:58 pm
so, as I understand it, the line about haggle stopping when either person fails means that *that* person cannot keep trying. if you keep on succeeding, you can keep on racking up successes. I can certainly agree that it isn't clear, however.
That's how I understood it but didn't have my book handy to confirm.
that said, it won't help you that much with fencing stolen goods, either. the "cost" that is increased or decreased by 5% is the amount you're selling the thing for, which in this case is 10% of the book price. so if you have 100 sp worth of stuff, which you're selling for 10 sp because you are fencing stolen goods, and you win a haggle test, that is worth an extra 5 copper, not an extra 5 silver.
That is not my interpretation. If you succeed then it's 15% of the price and so on.
well, for what it's worth, I took the time to check the errata, and that makes it a bit more clear:

"Haggle, Page 152
Clarification: Each side makes all their tests independently, they do not alternate tests."

it doesn't say anything on what you'd be haggling, but again, I would have expected it to be the price you're starting from, not the full value of the item.

Belenus
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Re: Replacement Talent for Haggle

Post by Belenus » Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:22 am

Sharkforce wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:14 am
well, for what it's worth, I took the time to check the errata, and that makes it a bit more clear:

"Haggle, Page 152
Clarification: Each side makes all their tests independently, they do not alternate tests."
So who rolls faster, gets more tests?
Because the Players Guide itself says (and isn't removed by the errata):
However, as soon as either side fails a Haggle test, the bargaining stops.
This doesn't make any sense to me...

Sharkforce
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Re: Replacement Talent for Haggle

Post by Sharkforce » Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:02 pm

Belenus wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:22 am
Sharkforce wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:14 am
well, for what it's worth, I took the time to check the errata, and that makes it a bit more clear:

"Haggle, Page 152
Clarification: Each side makes all their tests independently, they do not alternate tests."
So who rolls faster, gets more tests?
Because the Players Guide itself says (and isn't removed by the errata):
However, as soon as either side fails a Haggle test, the bargaining stops.
This doesn't make any sense to me...
neither side rolls faster, and the side with the higher haggle rolls more tests (if they want to).

their rolls are independent. if either side fails a haggle test, the bargaining for that side stops.

MetalBoar
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Re: Replacement Talent for Haggle

Post by MetalBoar » Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:03 pm

well, for what it's worth, I took the time to check the errata, and that makes it a bit more clear:

"Haggle, Page 152
Clarification: Each side makes all their tests independently, they do not alternate tests."
Thanks to Sharkforce! I'm glad someone thought to look at the errata. Last couple of times I checked it wasn't in there so I just assumed the RAW in the book was all that was going to be said on the matter and didn't think to check again when it came up in my new game. Still as Belenus says it's still not particularly clear. If they hadn't changed the text from:

3rd edition
The adept may make a number of tests per transaction equal to his Haggle Rank. However, as soon as he fails a Haggle Test, his bargaining stops."
to this:

4th edition
The adept may make a number of tests per transaction equal to his Haggle rank. However, as soon as either side fails a Haggle test, the bargaining stops.
things would be a lot less murky. I think I know what they were trying to achieve and why they didn't just swap in the 3rd edition text in the errata but I am making assumptions about the matter.

Regardless, my group has decided to experiment with a house rule that requires only a single role from each participant in the negotiation that allows for what seem like reasonable levels of benefit for the skilled Haggler. It could also be done with multiple roles back and forth and perhaps allowing Resist Taunt to "parry" successful Haggle roles and make the negotiation process the equivalent of a financial duel, which might be fun for some campaigns, but that isn't what I'm looking for in this game. We'll probably tweak it as we go along but so far it looks like we're going to try to figure out something that makes Haggle a worthwhile talent/skill without breaking anything and without requiring a lot of roll playing, though I am giving bonuses for good role playing.

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etherial
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Re: Replacement Talent for Haggle

Post by etherial » Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:23 am

Here's a link to the Haggle Mini-game I use that I wrote up last time we talked about Haggle here.

http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... game#p2044

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