Question: 'Nobody Here' spell

Discussion on game mastering Earthdawn. May contain spoilers; caution is recommended!
Bonhumm
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Question: 'Nobody Here' spell

Post by Bonhumm » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:45 pm

Trying to define exactly what is covered by that spell:

It its clear from the term 'invisible' that anyone inside the AOE of the spell are cannot be visually seen by those outside that AOE.

But what about the other senses? For example, what would be the reaction of hounds facing that Illusion?

On one side, the spell uses the term 'invisible' so it seems to imply that the illusion only applies on sight; thus the hounds should be able to smell the tightly pack of Adepts standing still 15 feet in front of them (although they might be confused by the fact that they can't see what they are smelling).

But on the other side, the spell also says: 'his senses detect any characters that would normally be visible, but the knowledge is
suppressed by the spell'.
thus the fact that they wrote 'senses' in the plural form would seem to imply that the Adepts would also be.... 'in-smellable', 'in-tastable' and 'in-touchable'.

I'd appreciate opinions and/or rulings on that.

Thank you.

Michael
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Re: Question: 'Nobody Here' spell

Post by Michael » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:24 am

as stated in the spell
If failed, the viewing character’s sensory feedback is magically suppressed—his senses detect any characters that would normally be visible, but the knowledge is suppressed by the spell.
So no to any other senses detecting the caster/targets of the spell. It's the catch all answer to all of the questions in Earthdawn . . .

"It's magic!"

Belenus
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Re: Question: 'Nobody Here' spell

Post by Belenus » Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:56 pm

In short: I agree to Michael :D
Even Astral sight won't work as long as it isn't high enough to cancel the illusion.

Panda
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Re: Question: 'Nobody Here' spell

Post by Panda » Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:51 pm

Illusions (as distinct from figments) rarely affect only one sense in 4E; they don't fool your senses, they fool you into believing the illusion, then your senses create whatever input is necessary to make sense of the illusion. Interacting with them generates Sensing tests, which is your sensory input disputing what you believe and allowing you to break the spell. In this case, though invisible and visible are used, they're just useful shorthands where (as previously noted) the broader description of the spell notes all senses are specifically affected.

Bonhumm
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Re: Question: 'Nobody Here' spell

Post by Bonhumm » Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:34 pm

Thank you all for your answers.

This fit with my interpretation of the rule (especially the 'illusions=all senses / figment=one sense') but the repeated use of the word 'visible' created some doubts in my mind so I wanted to be sure.

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Mataxes
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Re: Question: 'Nobody Here' spell

Post by Mataxes » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:38 am

Thinking of "figment" as only applying to one sense is... not technically wrong? But not exactly right either.

The better distinction is that "Illusions" (as defined by the keyword) are masquerading as "real", where "Figments" are not.
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Lursi
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Re: Question: 'Nobody Here' spell

Post by Lursi » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:36 pm

So someone is charging with his horse on a narrow path through a group of obsidimen adepts (who just happened to discuss about their next steps right there in privacy)protected by this spell.
will the rider bump into them and maybe roll damage?

He will roll a sensing test and in case of a fail make up a credible story for his crash?

Will he still believe this story after the spell expires or will he suddenly realize what happened?

Do the invisible adepts also suffer damage from the crash?

Can I step on an illusionary bridge and cross a river if I keep believing in it?
Of all things I lost, sanity I held dearest.

Slimcreeper
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Re: Question: 'Nobody Here' spell

Post by Slimcreeper » Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:18 pm

1) one sensing test per obsidimen they bounce off. Horse makes tests too.

2) not sure, but I think they’ll believe the spell because their brains invented plausible sensory input for what it believed. Something our brains do a _lot_.

3) yup

4) noooooo not the illusory bridge question nooooo

Panda
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Re: Question: 'Nobody Here' spell

Post by Panda » Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:31 pm

I'm going to assume the group of obsidimen are affect by the spell for this. Pretty much everything here is covered under Illusions (Player's Guide, p. 266).

Since there's no way to go around, the rider would assume there's some obstruction in the way. Normally, they go around and don't notice. In this case, they just don't know what's in the way. Unless the obsidimen make a path for the rider to go through and it's possible. This is likely to force some Sensing tests because it's a situation where what the dispartity between what they believe and what they can sense is significant and there's no way to easily ignore it.

Of the rider ran into them, there would be a Sensing test, which is typical (see Sensing Illusions, Player's Guide, p. 266).

If the rider failed all Sensing tests, they may not know what exactly happened and be confused about the whole thing. It was weird. Then they move on with life. (See Illusions and the Physical World, Player's Guide, p. 267.)

Expiry of the spell does not retroactively change their memories because their memories were never affected.

Why wouldn't the affected obsidimen suffer damage? This question doesn't make sense. The illusion doesn't cause damage. Being protected by an illusion doesn't protect against harm.

No, an illusory bridge doesn't allow you to cross it. (see Illusions and the Physical World, Player's Guide, p. 267). This is specifically addressed in the section:
For example, an illusory bridge would hold no weight—a character trying to cross would simply fall, taking damage and wondering why he was so clumsy as to step off the bridge.

Bonhumm
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Re: Question: 'Nobody Here' spell

Post by Bonhumm » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:22 pm

My understanding of the 'false sensory feedback' of 'full' illusions is that the brain 'invents' the feelings related to the illusions.

Thus, facing an illusionary wall, a character who put his hand on the wall, will feel the wall and, if he tries to walk through it, he won't be able to.

HOWEVER, if I was to shove him toward the wall, the character might actually feel himself hitting the wall but (if I pushed him hard enough so that his own body cannot compensate) would still go through it because there IS no wall in reality.

So the same thing would happen for the bridge; if I was to just extend my leg and touch the bridge with the tip of my foot, I would 'sense' the bridge as being real but as soon as both my legs will be on the bridge, I will fall down because my body no longer have leverage on the real ground.

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