I expect this will probably be the last post I will bother doing in this thread, since I think we have reached the point of just reiterating already stated positions, and real points are being ignored in favor of erecting straw men to knock down. But I will try to sum it up my points one last time.
Sharkforce wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 6:50 am
that said, i'm prepared to agree that i'm operating off of extrapolation for my explanation of why i think it should work. but i would also point out that you're stuck going beyond the rules in your assumption that the training referred to in the griffin description is the adept talent (which definitely does not work as described) and not mundane training that should last indefinitely, as well as your assumption that regular griffins have the exact same problem that jungle griffins have in spite of the description suggesting that this is a major difference between the two.
I also freely admit that I am often operating off of extrapolation. Wiggling some little bits, hoping to make the rules fit a bit better into my head-space.
Following is a probably incomplete list of assumptions I make on this topic that often have almost no textual support, but that I just think ought to be true.
- As far as I can see, the rules don't say that mundane (skill based) training lasts indefinitely. In fact the rules say the skill works exactly like the Talent, but with one added limitation. However the rules also indicate that you can buy animals with certain training (mount training, etc) that does last forever. Nowhere in the rules does it say anything about how that is done. I believe (with no support other than extrapolation from other rules) that the training of certain behaviors for young animals: taming (don't eat the groom), riding mount package, war mount package, and guard dog and war dog packages, can be done by ether the skill or the Talent. Using the Talent is probably easier, but the end result is the same. These behaviors learned young never expire (even if taught using the Animal Training Talent). Additional "Tricks" can't be taught young so they don't expire, just the basic behaviors. However for the training to never expire the training must be done while the animal is young, and maintained until it is adult for the training to last the entire lifetime of the animal. If using the Talent, it is not so much the training that takes years, it is waiting for the animal to grow up that takes years. Ether one, talent or skill works just as well as the other. Both take the entire adolescence of the animal. No textual support for any of this, for or against. In the absence of any other rules that cover lifetime training, it just makes sense to me. Just to be clear, there seems to be No advantage to using the skill over the Talent. In RaW both work almost exactly the same, but I can easily see other people arriving at different assumptions.
- I fully admit that I am extrapolating when I say that the phrase "In order for a griffin to be used as a mount, it must be captured young and subjected to extensive and intense training" is most likely the same reason that "no jungle griffin has ever permitted a Namegiver to sit on its back". There could be a totally and completely different reason normal griffins can not or will not be used as a mount unless captured and trained young. But rather than ignore the clear text of the creature description that says they need to be captured and trained young in order to be used as a mount, or rather than bothering to come up with a different and unrelated reason why they can not or will not be used as a mount, it does seem simplest to assume the reason is the same.
- I honestly do not believe that the descriptions of the two creatures are highlighting a difference between the adult Jungle Griffin and the adult Common Griffin. It is highlighting a difference between the young common Griffin and the young Jungle Griffin. The young common Griffin can be trained. The young Jungle Griffin can not. I don't see anything at all that indicates there is a difference in the attitudes of adult common Griffin and adult Jungle Griffin. It seems extremely clear that both refuse to be trained as mounts, but it is merely an assumption that the common Griffin refuses to be trained because he dislikes the training, there could be some other reason. It seems a very reasonable assumption to me however.
- The companion says that to "combat train" a griffin (Journeyman Tier creature, with Willful [1]) requires 3 tricks. So I assume, that training an animal while young, means you need to keep (stable and feed) the animal from cub through adolescences until adulthood. You need to give it training during that time by continually renewing 3 tricks worth of training so that it's training never expires.
- A lot of the expense of buying a trained Griffin is the expense of feeding an adolescent griffin for a few years. A griffins food is about 20 times more expensive than a war horses.
- The reason that adult Griffins can't be trained as mounts is that in the creature description it says "In order for a griffin to be used as a mount, it must be captured young and subjected to extensive and intense training." GMs can decide that they don't like that, and house-rule it out of existence. But it actually does say that, and the GM ought to be aware that deciding to ignore it is a house rule.
Sharkforce wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 6:50 am
(i would also make the argument on the basis that it's pretty lame if the only way for a cavalryman to ever get a griffin is to buy one, with no real chance of taming it themselves, when they can tame basically every other suitable mount in existence for themselves if they can find one, but that isn't a rules-based argument; the quest to find and tame a griffin sounds much more exciting than the quest to get enough money to buy one that somebody else tamed for you)
It is not that you can't train your Griffin yourself, you just have to plan ahead. Griffins are 5th circle challenges. So a party of 4th or higher might be able to quest to find a mated pair with eggs or hatch-lings. Most Earthdawn games I have been in where the GM actually bothers to track down-time have a surprisingly lot of it (depending upon how much time research takes in your campaigns and how many weapon-smiths a city has that are willing to drop everything and do the party forging many parties spend a whole lot more time in down-time than they do adventuring. Sure you will not be on a Griffin by 5th circle, but it will probably grow up before you know it.
And once again, a GM can just house-rule the "must capture young" rule out of existence if they want. It is totally and completely at the GMs option.
Sharkforce wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 6:50 am
particularly since the extensive and intense training in question does not match up in any way with how the talent works. there is no way to do months of training with the talent. or, really, any actual training at all. whatever the adept did is erased in an instant if they personally don't retrain the animal, and then since the training is gone there is no way to give it back the ability to act as a mount that it already had. the description only makes sense if it is talking about non-magical training.
Once again, there are no real rules for training an animal young, nor for any training that does not disappear after a few months, but we do know that such training does exist, so each GM can feel free to invent his own. My house rule is that the character needs to keep it "trained" during it's entire adolescence and then the training becomes permanent. Others could reasonably vary.
Now lets deal with the parts of the post that I consider the meat of the matter.
Sharkforce wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 6:50 am
and from there, we know that those griffins are potentially capable of learning the task. then why couldn't they be magically gifted with that ability for a limited time when they could be magically gifted with any number of other abilities? again, you're not really teaching them how to do anything. when the magical connection is lost, they go from knowing exactly how to perform the task to not knowing it at all. the question of what kind of training they need is irrelevant; whatever you're doing, it certainly looks like training, but it is very different. it can be dispelled instantly, for example. arguably it only works while the adept is conscious. the animal has not genuinely been trained, it has been given a way to draw on the adept's magic to perform a task it should by all rights not understand how to do.
I don't think a griffin being not suitable to be a mount unless trained young has anything whatsoever, even a tiny little bit, to do with what the magic can do, nor of "magically gifted abilities". If a totally untrained Griffin wanted to let you strap a saddle to it's back and to carry you, the two of you could probably manage. The problem is that it does not want to! It flat out refuses to! Animal Bond and Dominate Beast specifically address that they don't work well if the animal is being forced to do something it really strongly does not want to do, and the creature description of Griffins says adults don't take to mount training.
Sharkforce wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 6:50 am
only one type of griffin refuses to permit people to sit on its back though. specifically, the type that is not being asked about. instead, we are talking about the type of griffin that is in direct contrast to those ones. nothing says that regular griffins refuse to let anyone sit on their back, so that's not a problem we have to resolve.
I agree, we don't have to resolve anything about the Jungle Griffin, which "no jungle griffin has ever permitted a Namegiver to sit on its back".
The only thing to be resolved is the statement
Griffin from the GM Guide wrote:In order for a griffin to be used as a mount, it must be captured young and subjected to extensive and intense training.
I tend to think that this means that in order for a griffin to be used as a mount, it must be captured young and subjected to extensive and intense training.
You, however, do not seem to think that the phrase "In order for a griffin to be used as a mount, it must be captured young and subjected to extensive and intense training" means that In order for a griffin to be used as a mount, it must be captured young and subjected to extensive and intense training.
You seem to be arguing that "my Griffin loves me, and would gladly serve as my mount, so long as I can teach it how, and I can teach it how"!
My argument is that "Adult Griffins probably consider being trained as a mount to be abuse, and will not put up with it. They hate the idea of being trained as a mount more than they love you".
It has absolutely nothing whatsoever about how Animal Training works or what it can and can't do, except that you can only train a bonded animal, and abusing the animal decreases the bond, therefore you can't train an animal to be abused.
I don't really consider the above two paragraphs to be an assumption or an opinion. For my text I take the statement
Griffin from the GM Guide wrote:In order for a griffin to be used as a mount, it must be captured young and subjected to extensive and intense training.
In the absence of a GM implementing a house rule, that seems to me to be the Alpha and the Omega of this topic.
So to concisely restate my argument, "In order for a griffin to be used as a mount, it must be captured young and subjected to extensive and intense training". If that did not happen, then griffin can't be used as a mount. The reason probably (not certainly, but probably) is because they are too old and set in their ways to be trained as mounts. They hate the very idea. They consider it abuse. If an animal is abused their Animal Bond status plummets. You can't train an animal that you are abusing.
There might be some other, totally unrelated reason why "In order for a griffin to be used as a mount, it must be captured young and subjected to extensive and intense training." But it is probably because they consider it abuse. But the one and only thing we truly know on the topic is that "In order for a griffin to be used as a mount, it must be captured young and subjected to extensive and intense training."