questors

[earcaraxe]

i might be missing something but do i see it correctly that becoming a 4th circle questor doesnt require much of questing/religious lifestlye (whatever it might mean). The deeds are only needed for getting back devotion points, right?

(in previous editions u had to lead a somewhat comited lifestyle in order to advance the questor talent)

[ChrisDDickey]

Not right. A Quest must be performed with every tier advancement.
In general, "is this questor devoted enough to his passion" is a topic that is mostly left to GM discretion without a bunch of "crunchy" rules.

But becoming a Follower of a Passion is covered under...

Adhering to a Passion’s ideals is the only thing all questors have in common ... If a player wishes their character to become a questor, they declare their intention (which must be approved by the gamemaster) and start devoting their character’s life to a single Passion, living that Passion’s ideals, and helping spread their patron’s influence across Barsaive.

While Questors are not required to commune with their Passion each and every day, I presume most do so whenever possible. Spending one hour per day in what is essentially prayer is a good start to a committed lifestyle (but not sufficient in and of itself).

To advance Tiers as a Questor (from Follower to Adherent or Adherent to Exemplar" a Quest must be performed, which is the most difficult, dangerous, or time consuming sort of Act of Devotion (deed) listed in the book.

Moving from one tier to another (e.g., Follower to Adherent) requires the questor to undertake and complete a specific task on behalf of their Passion (called a quest). Examples are provided in the description for each Passion, but the quest should be aligned with the Passion’s ideals and be achievable. It might be a smaller piece of a larger goal. For example, “restoring the Badlands” is probably beyond the ability of any individual questor, but “cleanse the ruins of Hunter’s Run and keep it free of taint for a month” might be a suitable quest.

Finally Page 138 of the Questors book has the "Falling out of Favor" section wherein if the GM feels that the Questor is frequently behaving in a manor that would displease their patron, the Questor looses the ability to spend Devotion Points.

So yes, while becoming a Questor is as simple as declaring that you wish to do so. It requires constant devotion to keep access to the granted powers and Zealous work to advance.

[earcaraxe]

thanks!

However your conclusion (constant devotion needed in order to advance) - as I see it - doesnt follow from ur premises (must not deviate too much from ideals, must complete quest to get to higher tier). I guess u see that too, right?

According to the rules u quoted: once i became a questor (follower w level 1 questor devotion), there is really only LP and (little) time needed in order to raise my "questor" and four other follower-level devotions to level 4. Only thats where I hit the "quest-wall". (oh, and in the meantime i have to refrain from burning down villages if following garlen, right)

Remember: this question is about the rules as written, not about their intent. I -as a DM - get these kind of questions all the time (some players are just optimalizators, no matter what)

[Slimcreeper]

I imagine if you declare yourself a Questor and then just don't Quest, actual Questors get pretty pissed about you muddling the brand.

[ChrisDDickey]

I quoted rules on becoming a questor and advancing, but merely referenced the rules on falling out of favor. I should have quoted them as well.

Questors ... must behave in accordance with their Passion’s ideals, accepting opportunities to perform acts of devotion. If a questor fails to imitate the nature of their patron when they have the chance, they may fall out of favor.
Passing up a single chance to perform an act of devotion will not, on its own, bring disfavor on the questor. But if a questor consistently ignores opportunities to behave in line with their Passion, or even act against those ideals, they lose their patron’s support.

This says that Questors need not only refrain from doing (even once) anything antithetical to their chosen Passion, but they must frequently actively accept (even look for) opportunities to behave in line with their Passion. Every time a Questor of Garlen DOES NOT tend to the sick or injured, or fails to protect a home in peril, they risk offending their Passion. Yes, the Passion is willing to overlook the occasional failure, especially if you are already busy serving the Passion some other way. The dilemma "do you rush off to deliver the urgently needed medican to the village, or do you tend to the old man with two broken legs, should be a role-playing dilemma, not a 'screwed no matter what you do' dilemma". But in general a Questor is supposed to constantly looking for the best way to model their passions virtues.

You don't need constant devotion in order to advance. You need a grand success in order to advance. You do need reasonably constant devotion to just to maintain access to your Passion granted devotions. Otherwise they get taken from you and you need to do some serious groveling before you get them back.

[earcaraxe]

I completely understand what u wrote and - as I see it - still nothing indicates that reaching "level 4 questor+4 novice devotions" is hard (according to rulebook), nor that it *should be made hard by the DM* nor that it *could be made hard by a realistic DM roleplaying the passion*. You seem to imply that it IS hard, and thats just not the case. When u just sit in a tavern meditating for a couple weeks, spending LP on raising devotions, doing just enough "good deeds" as a byproduct (for instance healing the ocassional sick in the tavern) it easy to imagine you wont anger the passion. Its like (=it is) a preparation. Like going to a training before starting the real job. The passion gets a stronger pawn, its good for him/her/it, everybody wins.

[ChrisDDickey]

I never said it is hard to be a Questor, or that it should be hard, or that a GM should make it hard.
I said it is not true you don't need to live a religions lifestyle.

Bare in mind that I am not talking about living in a monastery and singing hymns, I am talking about behaving in accordance with their Passion's ideals. The ideal lifestyle and behavior of a Questor of Chorrolis is usually very different than the ideal lifestyle and behavior of a Questor of Thystonius, or any other Passions you cared to name.

However it ought to be fairly easy for most Questors to behave in accordance with the Passion they have chosen to Quest to emulate's ideals. That is what they are questing to do. It should be fairly easy for a character that is caring and compassionate to heal and protect the innocent. It should be fairly easy for a character that is greedy and firm-willed to do things that will please Chorrolis. Likewise a character who is cruel and bitter should find staying in Raggok's good graces easy and enjoyable. Do what you love and you will never work a day in your life.

It only becomes work if a player says (for example) I want Garlen's healing powers for myself and my party, but I don't want to waste my time healing NPCs. In that case, emulating Garlen's ideals becomes work. But it is work that ought to be done often enough to satisfy Garlen.

You asked about the rules as written, saying that you know players who are optimizers who may want benefits but argue about paying any associated costs. It seems like the most germane rule is "Questors ... must behave in accordance with their Passion’s ideals, accepting opportunities to perform acts of devotion. If a questor fails to imitate the nature of their patron when they have the chance, they may fall out of favor".

As to your example, Questors increase their devotions during their "Commune with Passion" ritual that takes 1 hour and can be done once per day. I can think of few occasions where any Passions would object to their Questors taking the time to Commune with them and increasing Devotion ranks. As a minor quibble, I would think that only Questors of Florranus would choose to Commune with their Passion in a tavern. Maybe Questors of Astendar if the tavern had really good music. I would think that most Questors of other Passions could find more appropriate settings.

Anyway, lets expand your example to say that the Questor is also an Adept and is also meditating for 8 hours per day to raise Talents as well. With only 9 hours per day (plus meals etc) accounted for, that still leaves a good amount of time for a Questor who wanted to do good works to perform them. I would tend to think that a compassionate Questor would tend to make house calls rather than insist that a sick or injured NPC be carried to a public tavern (the publican would object, even if the sick did not). But in all this seems perfectly reasonable, acceptable to all parties, and not at all hard. Just tell the inn-keeper to spread the word that there is an itinerant healer and Questor of Garlan in town, and that you are happy to make house calls for 2 hours after breakfast and in the early evening. The only two problems is if the character begrudges their time making house calls, and every once in a while, a life or death emergency could come up halfway through a meditation, causing somebody to attempt to interrupt the meditation. Unless you are a Questor of Dis or Raggok, you might just want to grin and accept it. The Questor is doing what he loves, and the Passion is happy. No problem.

And once again, there is usually no problem if the Questor is occasionally too busy to perform Acts of Devotions. The Passion would normally only have a problem with the Questor if they consistently put performing Acts as so unimportant that they rarely bothered with any.

[Mataxes]

If you decide to quest for a Passion, it isn't that hard -- mechanically -- to advance. This is intentional in the design.

I look at it kind of the same way I look at adept populations. A relatively small number of people actually pursue the path, and most of them are going to be low-powered, picking up a couple of magical tricks so they can be a little bit more effective than non-magically powered people.

The Passions want their ideals spread, and making it easier for individuals (who would probably be doing those things anyway) helps spread those ideals. The broader obstacles to advancement as a questor are role-playing based, and subject to GM approval (playing the role of the Passion).

If you just want to dabble around in the "novice" tier to have a couple of useful tricks you can pull out? Have fun. It should come through in how you portray your character -- and the devotion point mechanic supports that.

I didn't want the system to be as mechanistic* as adept advancement -- where you need to train for each step in the progression -- just put a couple of gateways in place where a questor needs to really demonstrate their devotion to be granted access to the next level of power. This also provides a potential for story and adventure hooks -- whether an NPC questor is looking to hire adventurers to help them complete a given task, or for a PC questor to have a subplot or adventure dedicated to their thing (in a similar kind of way to what thread item key knowledges can do).

* I didn't like the advancement scheme of previous versions of questor powers, which I feel basically boiled down to "you must have done X amount of stuff to qualify." It turned the Passion into a kind of "vending machine" and didn't treat them as entities with their own desires, goals, and personalities.

[earcaraxe]

Fantastic help, Mataxes, thanks! That clears up picture!