[TW/ED] Healing

Discussion on game mastering Earthdawn. May contain spoilers; caution is recommended!
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The Undying
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Re: [TW/ED] Healing

Post by The Undying » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:32 pm

There's nothing RAW about Nethermancer intervention at any point in the process for blood charms other than creation.

The only guidance we really get from the ED4 Player Guide is:
- Initial implanting takes a day for the magic to become active but the blood magic damage is taken immediately.
- spent charms that do not destroy themselves or become inert after use can be reused once previous damage is healed.
- a charm being reused / reimplanted / recharged is already attuned to the Adept and can be used immediately, it does not take a day for the magic to become active.
- Desperate charms are most definitely blood charms: they cause blood magic damage when implanted

From my perspective, fixing one complexity with another doesn't solve a complexity problem unless the new one is less complex. Adding a queue system for damage seems to make the problem worse.

Lys
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Re: [TW/ED] Healing

Post by Lys » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:40 pm

Honestly the way i handle it is that when a rechargeable charm is used i mark it off as spent, but leave the character's blood magic damage and health ratings the same. Then later when healing damage, i spend regained health points equal the charm's Blood Magic Damage in order to reactivate it. Like if you rolled a 5 on your recovery test, you spend 3 to reactivate Desperate Blow, and the other 2 to heal damage. It's super simple and mathematically works out the same. There's no need to track which damage was caused by what, and no need to alter your death or unconciousness ratings.

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RazanMG
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Re: [TW/ED] Healing

Post by RazanMG » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:43 pm

I do it exactly like Lys, its simple.

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The Undying
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Re: [TW/ED] Healing

Post by The Undying » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:44 pm

I like this system, Lys.

Telarus
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Re: [TW/ED] Healing

Post by Telarus » Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:25 am

::Thinking way back to 1e when our group used a lot of blood charms.::

Hmm, I seem to recall that once a re-chargeable charm was used, we moved the damage from the "Permanent" to the "Damage" box (no adjustment to "Total Damage"). It could then be healed at-the-character's leisure. I do remember rechargeable charms coming up, the Desperate ones, I think. Most other blood charms go inert or break once used.

Ok, here's the text from 1e core book:

"Desperate Blow
A Desperate Blow charm costs its wearer 4 Damage Points. Charm makers usually fashion desperate blow charms from steel and quartz. The wearer's blood infuses the quartz with red, and one drop of blood is perpetually suspended from the steel. At the wearer's discretion, the desperate blow charm adds 6 steps to either an Attack Test, or a Damage Test. A desperate blow charm may be used more than once, but in order to reattach it, the wearer must first recover at least 4 points of damage in one Recovery Test."
-----
Assumptions: Charm falls off after being used. After healing at least 4 damage points, it may be reattached using the same process as the first time, simply pressing it against skin and letting the charm "break through to reach the blood it needs to activate". Desperate spell charms read exactly the same, except 3 Damage Points. The only other charm that says it can be reused is the Horror Fend Charm, which costs an initial 2 Damage.
----
"Horror Fend
...The character chooses when to use the charm, and after using it once may either recharge the charm or let it fall from his body, destroyed. Recharging the charm costs the wearer an additional Damage Point. Unlike the initial 2 Damage Points, a character may heal any Damage Points lost by recharging without disposing of the charm. To heal the original 2 points of damage, the wearer must first destroy the charm ("let it fall off his body destroyed" -Tel)."
-----

So, we have 2 types, both cost Permanent Damage to install:
Re-attachable -- falls off your body when used (hopefully you chose smart and it falls into your shirt or gambeson). Must be "reattached" by pressing against living skin. I'd call that a Standard Action (fish it out of your clothe, press it firmly against skin - yeah that takes most of your 6 seconds).

Re-chargeable -- when used either falls off destroyed or must be recharged by costing 1+ Strain (not perm damage). Inert/falls off if not recharged after using. Re-charging seems to me a simple action (must be chosen at the same time/just after activating it)
Last edited by Telarus on Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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The Undying
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Re: [TW/ED] Healing

Post by The Undying » Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:36 am

Yeah, there seems to have been a wording change over the course of the editions, and I'd have to check to see when it occurred (not that it really matters). Early edition(s), per you ED1 example, used the term "reattach" for the Desperate charms, while ED4 uses the term "reimplant." Both of these have a definite feel of "physical intervention is required," ranging anywhere from a Simple Action to Standard Action to multiple Standard Actions, depending on the table's disposition. After that, while it definitely takes less than a day for re-implanted / re-attached charms to activate (since they are already attuned to the Adept, given ED4 parlance), there's no indication whether this is instant or that it takes turns / minutes / hours. Still, as long as the timeline for re-implanting Desperate charms can be performed within a single combat, the issue still standard for them.

Note on the Horror Fend: This has been been updated in ED4. It now becomes inert once it stops being "re-charged," but even in the text quoted from ED1, the "re-charge" damage sounds much more like either normal damage or Stain rather than Blood Magic Damage (since it can be healed immediately). This perspective is further reinforced by the ED4 version where the "recharge" aspect has been converted to a Strain-powered ability. That makes it more of a Strain-powered charm, which is a different thing altogether (as long as you have the Strain to burn, you can keep using these charms).

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The Undying
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Re: [TW/ED] Healing

Post by The Undying » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:41 am

In an attempt to make this information more widely useful, I've marked what I think are changes from RAW in red text. Where my intent or reasoning may not be clear, I've also added a footnote.

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Loba
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Re: [TW/ED] Healing

Post by Loba » Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:00 pm

Lys wrote:Honestly the way i handle it is that when a rechargeable charm is used i mark it off as spent, but leave the character's blood magic damage and health ratings the same. Then later when healing damage, i spend regained health points equal the charm's Blood Magic Damage in order to reactivate it. Like if you rolled a 5 on your recovery test, you spend 3 to reactivate Desperate Blow, and the other 2 to heal damage. It's super simple and mathematically works out the same. There's no need to track which damage was caused by what, and no need to alter your death or unconciousness ratings.
I use this system as well.

And as noted by others earlier - I ignore "stun" damage as anything other than damage except that it can't bring you more than unconscious.

AS Undying has mentioned - I don't like the "recover all strain at the end of the day" rule. Strain is just self inflicted damage. Burst a capillary because you lifted too much? Well, stop lifting so much.

As for all the rules, Undying.. I tend to be more lenient for the recovery tests. As you have mentioned, often when someone goes down it is a knock down drag you out fight and a character is down to 3 health and then swiped by a mad warrior twice - bringing them 40-50+ below their DR. Yikes. Maybe if the Physician puts all the pieces together with thread while adding saving salves and the Nethermancer casts a powerful spell - those tattered pieces of flesh might mend. MAYBE.

Of course, I tend to also use the multiple wounds per hit rule and add flavor by making characters limp or unable to use their right/left arm or temporarily blind in one eye... and so on. This allows for fun scars, colorful history, and more hesitation to take on someone who can bite through a characters armor by accident (sorry Miss Dragon - didn't mean to wake you from slumber).

But then, I expect most good GMs have their own variant of this and your rules are more focussed on new players/GMs or folks that enjoy tallying up a body count.

Overall I would say the rules seem great though I would ditch the "not effected by other means" unless explicitly stated as such (as the spells you mentioned - though they don't cover Physician nor other bizarre concepts.

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The Undying
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Re: [TW/ED] Healing

Post by The Undying » Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:34 pm

Yeah, Loba, I'm still kind of going back and forth on the "no other bonuses" stuff for when you're alive. The spells EXPLICITY say no healing aids, which is only potions. It just seems like a weird edge condition: why would the Potion not work, but the physician test does? I also might have overly summarized: one-time bonuses like potions are a bit different that permanent bonuses like Bone Charm. I'd be more likely to allow the latter in nearly all RT cases. However, there's a lot to be said for simplicity, and it feels better to say "no aids" versus "none of these, these are okay sometimes, these are always okay."

I'm still leaning on keeping the death stuff as it is - someone going 20 over is basically DEAD dead, it should not be trivial to overcome that much damage. Now, I MIGHT go for something like "a success Physician versus (something) adds one hour to their revival period." This MIGHT allow someone to get their companion to a Temple of Garlan, at which point GM intervention in exchange for plot hook could be had.

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Loba
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Re: [TW/ED] Healing

Post by Loba » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:01 pm

The Undying wrote: someone going 20 over is basically DEAD dead, it should not be trivial to overcome that much damage. Now, I MIGHT go for something like "a success Physician versus (something) adds one hour to their revival period." This MIGHT allow someone to get their companion to a Temple of Garlen, at which point GM intervention in exchange for plot hook could be had.
Interesting concept.
I hear you - 20 over is dead dead... you know you should have gone shopping shopping for that better armor instead of giving me a kiss kiss. :P

Honestly though - 20 over is doable in one hit. Sometimes that enemy archer just gets a 67 on damage when you were on your last leg and now you are at -48. Dead dead? Maybe. This has happened on just Circle 5 groups (I do tend to make opposition scary). So let's analyze it:

RT Count (or RI as you Use): 3 (Warriors will likely have used 1 or 2 already so only 1-2 left - let's just say they didn't)
Step: [TOU +7] [LifeCheck Rank 5 = Cheater Warrior] = 12
Wounds: 3 (-3 to Test)

Roll: 1:(9-3=6) 2:(18-3=15) 3:(15-3=12) : TOTAL 33 (Still Dead)

Add Death Cheat: +6 (let's just say +8 to first roll to be generous)
TOTAL: 41 (Still Dead)

Add Last Chance Salve: +5 (let's say on point with +5)
TOTAL: 46 (Still Dead)

That is just one arrow - to the chest and a lucky warrior not to have used their RT - which really they should only have 1 left instead of 3.

I'd argue that the Physician of Rank 4 (Circle 5 Character - expensive Skill) gets you a +4 which manages to stitch the wound over your chest after pulling out the arrow and cleansing it. This is for the last 2 tests. The warrior lives. Barely.

Now let's assume the more normal case of 1 RT left. DEAD. With a TOU of 7 you get 7 hours - 6 last chance salves at +5 if the party is rich and well equipped. Still likely dead.

Now let's assume you can use LifeCheck on each of those? Woah - you live! But not many folks will actually have Life Check...

Now let's make it not a warrior - DEAD.

Now let's add healing magic - POSSIBLY ALIVE.

So... rule is - don't get hit that hard.

Were I running this - if it was just an arrow - I'd let most anything work. On the other hand if it were 10 blows by an angry mob who smashed the character after unconscious - I'd call that 10 wounds (I tend to let an automatic wound if entirely defenseless) and I'd say without major healing magic you are toast. The damage is the same (48 over DR) but the circumstance is different. A single injury versus being cut up while down. The reasoning? GM fiat. Just makes sense. Just like if the damage were from some terrible flesh rending spell which gives multiple wounds. Then it is time to stitch up the character, clean and bind him/her and beat feat to a clean place that you can get a Questor of Garlen and a skilled Physician and Skilled Elementalist to do their best to save your loved comrade. 4 hours on the road gives you 3 hours of healing. 3 tests. You COULD live... but probably not.

The point here is - what does DEAD dead mean? Why "should" someone be dead? I definitely prefer a narrative decision to a rule/number based decision.

You are correct though - a Circle 7 group of adepts with a healer and Physician can probably heal someone 50-60 points if you are easy with the rules. I'm OK with that as long as it fits the narrative and the mood set by the players, NPCs and setting.

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