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ChrisDDickey wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:49 am

[...]but it might make a difference to the spirit or the tiger. Alright, probably not the tiger, but it might make a difference to the spirit to be enslaved and forced to kill you. It might ruin it's entire day!

A bone spirit might mind being enslaved, but I seriously doubt it having any objections to killing someone. The same goes for Fog Ghosts. The "Cruel Physician" really seems to enjoy its job.

And also: Since these spirits are all considered evil, one could say that they may deserve to be enslaved. Then there is the question of whether spirits have any consciousness at all. Oh, ethics is always a lot of fun.

Nethermencers are not necessarily evil. But I've never heard of a cult of Horror lead by an evil beastmaster. It's the nethermencer that do that most of the time.

That results from lack of imagination on the GM's/writer's part.

Imagine a cult lead by a corrupted Troubadour...

Spader wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:45 pm

Nethermencers are not necessarily evil. But I've never heard of a cult of Horror lead by an evil beastmaster. It's the nethermencer that do that most of the time.

We had an adventure in the badlands once, the entire hook was that a lot of new unknown horror constructs were swarming Travar and its suroundings.
Turns out it was a corrupted beastmaster who was using his powers to collect animals and then have them corrupted by his Horror Master
(by the way, if we had had the companion with he new masks, this entire adventure would have been much easier to prepare for my GM )

We fought an epic battle against him and his 3 corrupted Brithans. The nastiest thing though were the swarms of corrupted insects that surrounded the entire cave system, similar to those nasties that are describe in connection with the Blood Wood.

I stick by my point that Nethermancers are not evil, nor are any of their spells. They use what they find in their studies and if they find a bunch of tortured souls that they can use in their fight against the horros, then they might as well do so.
It's not like the nethermancer is creating all these spirits, it's just that he has discovered them and puts them to good use.

Take the physician spell, they somehow managed to take an evil spirit like that and channel it into something useful. Even if they were not able to get rod of the true nature of the spirit, it's a start.

ChrisDDickey wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:49 am

I think that Calamrin's point is that how you are killed might not make any difference to you, but it might make a difference to the spirit or the tiger. Alright, probably not the tiger, but it might make a difference to the spirit to be enslaved and forced to kill you. It might ruin it's entire day!

In any case, I think we can all agree that opinions are divided.
There are those that feel that Nethermancers are evil for enslaving spirits, because spirits have right too. And those that think that Elementalists are evil for enslaving Elementals, because Elementals have rights too. And those that think that Beastmasters and Cavalreyman are evil for dominating beasts, because beasts have rights too. And those that think that a Liberal Arts education turns your brains into tapioca.

I am going to stop being a troll and stirring the pot now.

You are quite right.

I do have a problem with taking a wandering spirit and turning into a rabid undead.
I suppose i do think spirits have rights....theres clearly enough in the spirit section saying they have personalities and traits like namegivers, that alter and develop as they gain power.
As to your other examples, i cant even be arsed replying as you clearly just stirring the pot)

As a warning to all you good nethermancers out there, i hope you are very careful where u trap and leave them and dispel/get them dispelled responsibly ;p

Calamrin wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:06 pm

As a warning to all you good nethermancers out there, i hope you are very careful where u summon and leave them and dispel/get them dispelled responsibly ;p

Never. Where would be the fun in doing that? In fact, my character usually leaves clues, warnings and markings when it comes to his bone circles. The other types of spirits are usually only bound by a spell for a very short time.

/sighs

Sidestepping the original point of this thread was originally about spell recommendations...

It presents a reflection of the in setting perception of Nethermancer which some try hard to shake, while others certainly don't help. A key argument for them is the world is full of dark things, that's never going to change, but no one else can really understand those things like Nethermancers. Nethermancers created spell matrix talents, a vital tool in fighting corruption. They also have some of the best tools for combating Horrors. To defeat this enemy, you must understand them. There's definitely danger in that and they traffic in dark things. They also heal and bring back the mostly dead (Recovery and Last Chance). There is deliberate ambiguity in their nature and ability set because that is what makes them dark, tragic, and compelling. It's up to the individual adept to forge their path. Painting everyone in the Discipline as evil is an awfully briad brush. Just as saying all Swordmasters are feckless layabouts, or every Beastmaster enslaves animals.

To that end, you can think all Nethermancers are evil and you aren't alone in the setting. However, you are objectively wrong. They have spells which tread a thin line, but not every Nethermancer uses every tool at their disposal. Indeed, access to Frighten and the associated spells can end a conflict without violence. If that use of Death's Head is perceived as more evil than murder, I am uncertain what to say.

There is specifically a discussion in the sidebars of the GM's Guide regarding spirits and slavery. This is a topic I wanted to broach. In part why default summoning involves payment of the spirit and their reluctance to be involved in violence.

In the French editions of Earthdawn, we also have the additional problem that Nethermancer was translated into "Nécromancien" (Necromancer), which always carries an evil connotation in fantasy games. A litteral translation of Nethermancer into French would be like "Néanmancien", which doesn't sound very good; I know a lot of ED players who have been using "Outremancien" (which would literally translate as "Othermancer" in English) as an alternate name for the Discipline.

Marzhin wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:49 pm

In the French editions of Earthdawn, we also have the additional problem that Nethermancer was translated into "Nécromancien" (Necromancer), which always carries an evil connotation in fantasy games.

In the German version of the game the translators unfortunately decided to translate "Horrors" into "Dämonen". "Dämonen" translated back to English means "Demons". The word has a strong religious, more specific christian undertone. :\