Spliced Weave problems [RESOLVED]

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The Undying
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Re: Spliced Weave

Post by The Undying » Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:38 am

That's what I get for not being a backer of the Kickstarter - get to wait for the published material like a plebe. =)

Diverging off to Concise Casting momentarily ...

I guess it really comes down to how Concise Casting is written in the Talent description. For one, it either requires a Standard Action Spellcasting test in the same turn as described in the Discipline previews or it doesn't. For two, the interaction with Threadweaving tests really comes down to how it's written. The intent seems pretty clear, at least based on the preview: the spell for Concise Casting cannot require any woven threads beyond what may exist pre-woven in the matrix. Unless it's a specific intent of the Talent, or some Knack thereof, any deviation from that sounds like it'd be rules-lawyer-ee. However, if the Concise Casting isn't written with sufficient clarity, I could see how people could start shoe-horning logic in there to break the limitation, especially if there are interesting Threadweaving Knacks that do weird things like thread reuse, bonus Threadweaving tests, etc.

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Re: Spliced Weave

Post by Slimcreeper » Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:09 pm

Just to dig this conversation back up. I've been thinking, Threadweaving might not seem so onerous if it was seemed to be doing something. How would we feel about giving the option for extra successes on Threadweaving to add +2 to the Spellcasting talent? With the idea being that the spellcaster who crafts the perfect matrix would find it easier to cast the spell. It would only apply to the required threads for a spell, not extra threads and not threads included in an enhanced matrix?

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The Undying
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Re: Spliced Weave

Post by The Undying » Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:21 pm

Allowing this to basically act like Spellcasting aiming (a la Mystic Aim, etc) would honestly be too good. Given that it's open-ended, you could basically make fifteen aiming rolls, getting anywhere from 30-60 bonus to your next Spellcasting roll. Yeah, that's A LOT of strain, but that's also TOO MUCH bonus potential, IMHO.

Honestly, I was hoping (likely against hope) that this Talent would either change or just straight get replaced if there was enough community disinterest in it. No one else has really chimed in, though, whereas there's a lot of angst over Hold Thread. I guess maybe I'm alone in my belief that this is just not a good Talent (which is okay).

Personally, I'd rather see this changed into something like a useless stub talent that high-cost Knacks could make useful. Call it something like "Chain Magic," which allows multiple uses of a single Talent per turn. Out of the gate, MAYBE is supports Threadweaving (which, again, really only gives value up to a Rank ~3). HOWEVER, this makes it clear that there's room to grow into other niches using high-cost Knacks. Maybe there's a Circle 8 Knack that allows Chain Magic use with Concise Casting - casting multiple 0 Thread spells in a turn is FUN (whereas reducing the number of turns required for Threadweaving isn't FUN, it just reduces the NOT FUN). Maybe a Rank 15 straight up allows Chain Magic on regular Spellcasting, using a pool of previously-woven threads? That's incredible, and worthy of the double the cost of Rank 15 on a Master tier Talent.

Right now, on top of the mechanical problems I've described, I think the biggest heartache I have with this Talent is what I randomly said above: it's NOT FUN, it just reduces the NOT FUN time.

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Re: Spliced Weave

Post by Kosmit » Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:22 am

I agree with you Undying. In my opinion every discipline should get talents unique to their discipline at Master Tier.

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The Undying
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Re: Spliced Weave

Post by The Undying » Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:05 am

The four main magician Disciplines have been revealed. All four have Spliced Weave at the top (not a surprise), and I'm not aware of any changes to the Talent. I'm not a backer (sincerely regret not knowing about it), so I don't have the Talent text, meaning my interpretation of the Talents is based on the preview descriptions. Here's the running tally on Circle 15 Talents:
  • Blood of Death’s Sea [Sky Raider]: Fireblood as a Simple Action, and either replaces the Fireblood Rank for the test (which'd be weird) or allows Rank uses as a Simple Action (either per turn or per day). In either case, more Rank = better, although there's definitely a diminishing return in the latter case. That's powerful (in-combat healing is sparse), and it's interesting (hard to say healing if fun).
  • Confront Horror [Weaponsmith]: Assuming it hasn't changed significantly from ED3, this is a contested test, versus the nastiest evils in the game [Horrors]. So, more Ranks = better. This is fun (who doesn't want to banish the boogey man).
  • Multi-Shot [Archer]: I'm assuming this means Rank = Extra Attack. So, more Rank = better. That's powerful, and it's fun.
  • Multi-Strike [Swordmaster, Warrior]: I'm assuming this means Rank = Extra Attack. So, more Rank = better. That's powerful, and it's fun.
  • Song of Battle [Troubadour]: Likely a Charisma replacement effect for Inspire Others. So, more Rank = better. This is powerful (likely means another +4 or +6 bonus to allies), and it's ok fun-wise (for me, hard to get excited about something that, from the text of it, really just sounds like "same ability over two Talents that stack so double the power").
  • World Pulse [Scout]: Sounds like a general-purpose "aim" ability which can provide benefits to multiple talents. Aim Talent rely on successes, so, more Rank = better. This is strong (general purpose buffs are always welcome), and it's interesting (hard to say that aiming is fun).
So, with the possible exception of Blood of Death’s Sea, every one of these gets better and better with each Rank purchased. Players/Adepts WANT to get this ability, and they WANT to increase it as high as they can.

And then there's Spliced Weave [Elementalist, Illusionist, Nethermancer, Wizard], where a few ranks is all you'll ever need... :( And it's not fun, it just means you spend less time doing not fun things. :(

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Re: Spliced Weave

Post by Dyrmagnos » Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:19 am

Multi attack/shot is quite bad talent compared to claw frenzy. In multi attack you roll vs physical defence of enemy and make 1 additional attack per succes + you have to split this attacks for every attacking posibility that you have (second weapon, second attack - probably lower steps than meele/ranged weapon) vs 15 attacks in claw frenzy. You can of course miss attack and finish your combo before all attacks would be made but with group pattern item you will likely to hit any enemy.
Multi is more predictible but gives you less attacks and is incredibly strong vs weaker oponents but when fighting with stronger enemy it would give you 1-2 attacks.

Troubadour ability to double social effects + song of battle makes circle 15 incredibly huge powerspike for this discipline.

Final talents are not balanced at all but spliced wave should be just talent knack like plant talk should be talent knack of elemental tongues and/or spirit talk.

Generally 4-th edition changes are leading us into good direction and previews role is to gather community voice and improve proposed mechanics. Spliced wave/concise casting are the most controvencial talents but vox populi, vox Dei could not work in tis matter :)

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Re: Spliced Weave

Post by The Undying » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:04 am

Dyrmagnos wrote:
Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:19 am
Final talents are not balanced at all but spliced wave should be just talent knack like plant talk should be talent knack of elemental tongues and/or spirit talk.
Personally I agree on both points. If they're afraid that the potential for Splice Weave is super super strong, then making it a Threadweaving Rank 15 knack solves that problem far better than a Circle 15 Talent. Yes, that does technically mean that someone at Circle 13 could access it if they wanted to differ their advancement a bit, but really, that's infinitely preferable to a Talent that only begs for 1-5 Ranks EVER. Talents should have usefulness as long as you're willing to invest more Ranks. Every other Talent gives you that. This doesn't. If they're REALLY against the idea of a Circle sub-15 getting access to it, make a special kind of Knack that is Circle based instead of Ranked based. ED4 even sets precedent for this kind of things with spells being "Circle+X" rather than "WIL+X".

I'm not against Plant Talk as a Talent personally. I'm just very much opposed to it as a Warden Talent (too expensive) and an Elementalist Discipline Talent (they can already do this, it's part of the Summon Talent; info gathering is not a primary feature of the Discipline, it's an Option focus, leave it there).
Dyrmagnos wrote:
Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:19 am
Generally 4-th edition changes are leading us into good direction and previews role is to gather community voice and improve proposed mechanics. Spliced wave/concise casting are the most controvencial talents but vox populi, vox Dei could not work in tis matter :)
See, this is my HOPE, but I don't KNOW that's the case. My hope is that these previews are their to get community feedback and make changes as appropriate (or necessary). My fear is this is a truth in advertising thing: it's a preview, not a call for feedback, too bad if something is bad (Spliced Weave) or straight broken (Elementalist).

As an extra note, since I am pretty close to rabidly opposed to this Talent, I just want to say that it comes from a love of the game and an every growing concern that the presence of this Talent is actually BAD for it. It is so out of whack in comparison to every other Talent that it makes that last advancement simply underwhelming. I love so much of what ED4 has brought to the game - I think nearly every single change has been great, with the few things I'm pretty vocal about (Threadweaving tax, Hold Talent, Spliced Weave, & Plant Talk as a Discipline Talent for Elementalists). I just see this as a window of potentially correct what I think is a mistake, which is why I come off as a dog with a bone that just keeps wrenching it back and forth and won't let go. :( I mean I can see what they're trying to do, it's just that a Talent, especially a Discipline Talent, especially a Circle 15 Discipline Talent, feels so wrong.

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Re: Spliced Weave

Post by The Undying » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:14 am

Since I'm not a huge fan of complaining about something but not recommending a solution:

It's hard to say what options are available, given that I have neither the exact Talent text for the Companion nor do I know the Knacks that will be made available. Based on what is available in ED3, though, my recommendations would be as follows.

1) Ditch the Spliced Weave Talent. It is not a good Talent. Don't get me wrong, it's a good ability, but it's a horrible Talent.

2) Make a new Circle 15 Knack with some or all of the Spliced Weave capability. A Circle-based Knack rather than Rank-based would be a new concept, but it's perfectly in fitting with the idea of Circle-based spell effects introduced in ED4. The downside is that we've made the cost pretty obscene. However, again, we can forge new ground with Knack costing since we're defining a new Knack requirement idea anyways. Call it something like "Magician Circle 15, Threadweaving 8" - the Adept has to meet both Circle and Rank requirements, but the Rank is what determines the cost. Cost the Knack sufficiently so that they can just do the Splice Weave effect up to Threadweaving Rank times out of the box - again, the idea of a Talent that only needs 1-4 Ranks is just bad, giving someone access above that is mathematically useless, so just give them Threadweaving Rank and be done with it.

3) Put the old Multi-Weaving into where Spliced Weave currently is. This does a bunch of great things. It's exciting - a magician can finally cast a powered up spell on a single turn! It feels worthy of the Circle 15 spot. It benefits from Rank improvement, which makes it a good Talent candidate. It unequivocally tells players that "this, and only this, is how we envision single turn Threadweaving & Spellcasting to work." Rename it and tweak the wording though - if you want to throw Magicians a bone for all their investment in "bonus to Threadweaving" gear while making it still distinct from "+Rank to Threadweaving" gear, have it say "The magician makes a Threadweaving test, using their Multi-Weaving Rank instead of their Threadweaving Rank." That way, anything they have that can improve Threadweaving TESTS don't lose their value.

4) Make a specific recommendation somewhere to NOT make a Knack for Multi-Weaving that essentially adds the Spliced Weave effect on it. This keeps the Multi-Weaving distinct and keeps it from completely replacing Threadweaving. At Multi-Weaving Rank 15, the Adept can pull off a LOT of tricks with that Simple Action Threadweaving Step ~25, and that's awesome. HOWEVER, it's still limited - if they want to stack more threads than they can get away with in that Step, or they want assurance that they'll actually complete the weaving, then too bad, you have to add a Standard Action Threadweaving (with or without Spliced Weave effect).

5) Make a design decision on one of two roads and specify the Talent text or Knack as appropriate. Option 1: Threadweaving & Multi-Weaving build the same spell. In other words, a magician can use both Threadweaving & Multi-Weaving to weave a spell. The idea here is that Multi-Weaving can act as insurance: the magician, say, declared two Threadweaving tests with the Spliced Weave effect and comes up one success short. Rather than losing another turn Threadweaving, they can [hopefully] get that last thread with a Multi-Weaving test, either on that Threadweaving turn or the next Spellcasting turn. Option 2: Threadweaving CANNOT stack with Multi-Weaving. In other words, a Multi-Weave spell must be started from scratch on the turn it would be cast, and it must be successfully completed and cast on that turn. This creates an interesting risk/reward for the Talent with Rules As Written - if the player stretches too far and attempts to pull off too many Threads, and they fail to get all the successes, they've wasted that turn, the woven threads of the unfinished spell just fall apart. If you go this route, though, I'd make a Rank 15 Multi-Weave Talent that allows the Talent to be used TWICE (not Rank times) in a single turn.

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Re: Spliced Weave

Post by Mataxes » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:14 am

The Undying wrote:
Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:14 am

3) Put the old Multi-Weaving into where Spliced Weave currently is...
I suddenly understand the issue you have. You haven't been understanding what the talent does.

Spliced Weave is, in many ways, the new Multi Weaving. It's a Simple action, so it can can be done the same round as Spellcasting. In fact, it combines with Concise Casting to allow (in theory) two spells with multiple threads per round.

I don't know if the problem came up in the way I described the preview, or whether changes that happened in the course of development over the last couple of months changed things from my earlier description, or what...

But the talent does what it sounds like you want it to do. Ranks matter (more ranks = more threads per round -- which works great with the potential for two spells per round), it allows weaving and casting in a single round, and actually does more than Multi-Weaving, because it combines with earlier talents to allow (potentially) two spells (with threads) per round.
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The Undying
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Re: Spliced Weave

Post by The Undying » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:33 am

Mataxes wrote:
Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:14 am
Spliced Weave is, in many ways, the new Multi Weaving. It's a Simple action, so it can can be done the same round as Spellcasting. In fact, it combines with Concise Casting to allow (in theory) two spells with multiple threads per round.

I don't know if the problem came up in the way I described the preview, or whether changes that happened in the course of development over the last couple of months changed things from my earlier description, or what...

But the talent does what it sounds like you want it to do. Ranks matter (more ranks = more threads per round -- which works great with the potential for two spells per round), it allows weaving and casting in a single round, and actually does more than Multi-Weaving, because it combines with earlier talents to allow (potentially) two spells (with threads) per round.
First, as always, let me thank you for chiming in. I know you're busy. I'll do my best to be brief in my response.

I definitely agree, I misunderstood the Talent. I may have missed it, but I don't think it was ever stated that Spliced Weave was, itself, a Simple Action. My assumption was that Spliced Weave was a Standard Action which allowed you to perform a number of Threadweaving tests as Simple Actions. If Spliced Weave is, in itself, a Simple Action, then I think this is an incredibly powerful ability.

That being said, I still believe this is a bad TALENT if it only begs for a couple Ranks. That doesn't mean it's fundamentally flawed, but I really think there should be a reason to get this to Rank 15. If you give the players a reason to do that, my objections to this as a Talent would be completely removed. Maybe you've already got one as a Knack and we just don't know it. If you don't, there's still plenty of time, although maybe the Talent would need a renaming (a la "Chain Magic" or "Multi-Magic").

Some recommendations for Knacks:
  • Let's face it, once an Adept has a few ranks in this, all that's being done is prolonging the inevitable - they're going to get the threads in a single turn, it's just going to cost Strain and a bunch of rolls. We can leverage this as a design space. The following may look messy, but we have precedence in Knacks with this structure (e.g., Matrix Objects)
    • Expedited Weaving, Novice (Spliced Weaving 5): For 1 additional Strain when using Spliced Weave to weave a Novice spell, the magician adds the effect of one extra thread to the spell as though a thread was woven. Standard limits on the number of extra threads apply.
    • Expedited Weaving, Journeyman (Spliced Weaving 9): For 1 additional Strain when using Spliced Weave to weave a Journeyman spell, the magician adds the effect of one extra thread to the spell as though a thread was woven. Standard limits on the number of extra threads apply.
    • Expedited Weaving, Warden (Spliced Weaving 13): For 1 additional Strain when using Spliced Weave to weave a Warden spell, the magician adds the effect of one extra thread to the spell as though a thread was woven. Standard limits on the number of extra threads apply.
    • Expedited Weaving, Master (Spliced Weaving 15): For 2 additional Strain when using Spliced Weave to weave any spell, the magician adds the effect of one extra thread to the spell as though a thread was woven. Standard limits on the number of extra threads apply. This ability can be used with other effects that grant free extra threads.
  • One of the really interesting design spaces for Spliced Weave is Multi-Discipline spells. Granted, I don't think any of these have ever actually be published, but guidelines for making them have been provided in old editions. One requirement is that a thread for each Discipline must be woven. We can embrace that kind of thing here. It also builds up a space for tables that want to use it: probably LOTS of adventuring required to uncover these kinds of spells.
    • Cross-Discipline Weaving (Spliced Weaving 8): When using Spliced Weave to weave a Multi-Discipline spell, each Threadweaving test is performed with a +2 bonus.
    • Cross-Discipline Mastery (Spliced Weaving 12): When using Spliced Weave to weave a Multi-Discipline spell, the magician adds the effect of one extra thread to the spell as though a thread was woven. Standard limits on the number of extra threads apply. This ability can be used with other effects that grant free extra threads.
  • If we just want to do one thing that adds an interesting punch, we could increase the number of extra threads available. Just have to be REALLY careful here since this Talent basically means that EVERY extra thread is ALMOST ALWAYS going to be woven.
    • Spell Weaving Mastery (Spliced Weaving 15): For 3 additional Strain when using Spliced Weave to weave any spell, the magician can weave one additional extra thread beyond their existing maximum extra thread count.
Last edited by The Undying on Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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