Hold Thread (and replacement thereof)

[Lys]

Since everyone else seems to be doing it, here's my stab at improving the Talent. The idea here is that it works sort of like an Enhanced Matrix+ that costs you one strain per round. It's fairly powerful, but then so are other Eighth Circle Discipline Talents, so i feel it's balanced. However because it's more powerful i did remove the ability to continue holding the thread when the duration expires by making another Hold Thread test, as i feel it's not needed. So when it runs out you have to reweave the thread to hold it again.

Hold Thread
Step: Rank + WIL Action: Simple
Strain: 1 (see text) Skill Use: No

The magician weaves a thread to a spell and then holds it until he is ready to cast or through multiple castings. This can be done with a thread required to cast the spell, or with an additional thread woven to the spell. First the magician makes a Thread Weaving test, as normal. If successful, she then makes a Hold Thread test against the spell’s Weaving Difficulty. If successful, the spell thread is held within its spell matrix for a number of rounds up to the magician’s Hold Thread rank. The magician may make a Spellcasting test to cast the spell during any of these rounds, but takes 1 Strain for each round the thread is held. When the spell is cast the held thread continues to being held as long as the Strain is taken and the Talent duration has not expired, though all other threads must be rewoven as normal. While using this talent to hold a spell, the magician cannot make any other Thread Weaving or Spellcasting tests, other than for the spell she is currently holding.

[The Undying]

So, more or less what I described as Rags's temporary-insanity interpretation of the existing Hold Thread talent? I'm not saying that the interpretation is insane, it's a very powerful ability, just the fact that he forgot how to brain for a few days.

[Kosmit]

I would add that weaving/casting another spell ends the talent. I know it's how you think it works but it's not written.

[Lys]

So, more or less what I described as Rags's temporary-insanity interpretation of the existing Hold Thread talent? I'm not saying that the interpretation is insane, it's a very powerful ability, just the fact that he forgot how to brain for a few days.

Yeah pretty much, i've always thought the Talent would be much better if it worked similar to like Tattered Rags thought it worked. It seems more in line with what most of the other Disciplines get at 8th Circle.

I would add that weaving/casting another spell ends the talent. I know it's how you think it works but it's not written.

Yes it is, read the last line. Technically its says that you have to end the talent in order to weave/cast another spell, but it adds up to the same thing.

[The Undying]

I appreciate all the feedback. Given that we've seen pretty much all the regularly-contributing forum players of today and yesteryear chime in, I think it speaks volumes that no one has provided even one instance where this Talent was actually used, let alone tales of how it is used with regularity by their current or previous table(s).

Even though the Player's Companion is probably a solid 6 months out, I'll probably reign in any final thoughts until it drops (barring new insights from others or a weigh-in from Mataxes of Panda illuminating what I must be missing with this Talent). More than anything, I want to see if there's something in the Knack system that could play in this role, or off of which a new/interesting Talent could be made to fill the gap. Don't want to horn in something now that ends up being already covered by Knack territory, fights existing Knacks, or makes Knacks unintentionally too strong.

My thought, right now, though:

- Lys's idea of a Talent that basically provides a high-Strain-cost way to temporarily add an extra pre-woven thread onto an existing matrix is pretty attractive. It's painful at 1 Strain per turn, but it's feels appropriately costs for the usefulness and power (whereas 1 Strain per turn feels woefully expensive for Hold Thread). Plus, it can interact nicely with Concise Casting at Circle 12: since the only prerequisite is that no Threadweaving is necessary for the spell, this new Talent could enable access to a 2-thread spell via Concise Casting (assuming it's an Enhanced Matrix that is getting juiced up).

- Something like Spliced Weave. Spliced Weave is just another BAD Bad Talent - a generic Talent that ends all magician Disciplines, a Talent that really only begs for 1-3 ranks, and an answer to the threadweaving tax that will basically never actually impact gameplay given its location. Moving Spliced Weave straight down to this level would just be too much power, I think, unless the Strain cost was astronomical, and I don't think it buys us much: the Talent still really only calls for a few ranks, but Adepts will be forced to keep pumping LP into it for basically zero benefit after like Rank 5. I'm not sure how to introduce a non-clunky ability to address the threadweaving tax, but if I'm trying to discard an all-magician Discipline Talent, this would be the time to do it if going a Talent route.

[The Undying]

I'll park this here, though, lest I forget it:

Shorthand Threads
Step: Rank + PER
Action: Standard
Cost: 1 Strain
Skill Use: No
The Adept studies a spell and its threads to better prepare himself for Threadweaving the spell. The Adept makes a Shorthand Threads test versus the spell Threadweaving Difficulty. For every success on the roll, the adapt gains +2 on all Threadweaving tests preparing that spell. This bonus lasts for RANK rounds, after which the Adept must refamiliarize himself with the spell via a new Shorthand Threads test. The Adept can only have one Shorthand Thread bonus active at a time; if the Adept want to familiarize himself with a different spell, he must elect to end the current Shorthand Thread bonus before attempting a new test.

I like this as a Talent replacement addressing the Threadweaving tax in a balance way that can slide into the spot currently held by Hold Thread. It gets better with more ranks, it scales with spell difficulty, provides greater benefit to lower spells versus higher spells, the cost and bonus are inline with close/range combat hit improvement Talents, and can be integrated into strategies for fewer dice rolls or reduce dice poll changes (bonus can be added to standard Threadweaving test). I left it as a Standard action because all existing things related to spells are Standard actions - making it a Simple action wouldn't be bad, it'd be inline with the close/ranged combat improvers, I just figured Standard also made sense for the flavor while also leaving it open for interesting Knacks.

[The Undying]

Two nice Knacks I can think of already:

Hold Spell
Talent: Shorthand Threads (9)
Strain: 1/turn

Once all threads are woven for the shorthand spell, the resulting thread pattern can be held temporarily rather than cast immediately. Beginning with the turn following the last necessary successful Threadweaving test, the Adept may spend 1 Strain per turn to hold the resulting spell pattern rather than casting it. This hold can only be maintained until the turn upon which the existing Shorthand Threads effect ends; if the Adept does not cast the spell on the last turn the of the active Shorthand Threads effect, the spell pattern dissolves. The Adept can also end the hold prematurely be electing not to pay the Strain, in which case the spell pattern dissolves and can no longer be casting (including on the turn the Strain is not paid). On any turn that the hold is active, the Adept may cast the spell as though the Threadweaving completed on the previous turn. Once the spell is cast, the hold effect ends, and the spell pattern is destroyed as normal with any casting.

(Honestly, the hold spell effect really only deserves to be a Knack - as a Talent, it's very underwhelming.)

Improved Shorthand
Talent: Shorthand Threads (11)
Strain: 1

In addition to any other Shorthand Threads Knacks, the Adept may add the Improved Shorthand effect when performing a Shorthand Threads test. Use of this effect adds an additional Strain at the time of the test. For every success achieved on the test, the Adept adds +1 to his Spellcasting tests for the shorthand spell as long as the Shorthand Threads effect is active.

[Tattered Rags]

Is cool, Mista Rags, we got you.

Given the correction, do you still think that being able to make repeated tests in order to layer on multiple threads for the one-time suspended casting is a "good enough" fix?

No, which is probably why I got confused in the first place. Multiple threads AND repeated castings are needed, just as I wrote it. Even if I got the original Talent's concept wrong, my fix requires multiple castings.

[Tattered Rags]

...just the fact that he forgot how to brain for a few days.

Basically.

I would add that weaving/casting another spell ends the talent. I know it's how you think it works but it's not written.

This should definitely be included in my description.

Even though the Player's Companion is probably a solid 6 months out, I'll probably reign in any final thoughts until it drops (barring new insights from others or a weigh-in from Mataxes of Panda illuminating what I must be missing with this Talent).

Yeah, we've probably plumbed this about as far as we can alone.

[The Undying]

Been thinking about both lightweight and heavyweight ways of addressing this. Right now, I think this would be my recommendation for the lightest approach as there's no potential conflict with Companion stuff and it doesn't introduce potentially problematic new Talents: swap the Talent for one of the Option Talents.

We have a few options here. The first is to try to maintain uniformity where possible. In keeping with "swapping like for like," the best candidate would be Tenacious Weave. Everyone but Wizard has this as a Journeyman Option Talent, and while it still is situational, it's far More useful than Hold Thread, especially as something that will end up with 10-15 Ranks. Wizard is our outlier, and as best as I can reason, True Sight is the least objectionable candidate.

The second approach would be to ditch uniformity and go with a bit more flavor. In this regard, I'd recommend Banish for both Elementalists and Nethermancers. This is in keeping with the forces Tongues/Hold/Summon chain, and there's always a chance their summon can go wrong and produce an unbound spirit. Illusionists would get Dispel Magic - seems fitting that a Discipline focused on trickery and warping reality could do denial as a main line trick. Wizards ... still get True Sight as the lesser of evils.

My personal preference is the second option. TW is nice, but it heavily depends on the GM throwing Dispel Magic around. If they don't, it's just another dead Talent.

In this model, Hold Thread stays on as a Talent (whether the table changes its mechanics or not), it's now just an Option. At least as something a player could take only a few ranks in, this is palettable as a nifty trick for those tha want it in their arsenal ... as something forever maintained, not so much to me.