Hold Thread (and replacement thereof)

[The Undying]

Ah, ok, so it's kind of like building a wall: you put one brick down (Threadweave), then cement it in place (Hold Thread), and repeat until the wall (spell) is built (all threads woven and held). The cement keeps the pieces together until you kick it down as part of the actual Spellcasting. Makes sense, although the end Talent description might be a bit clunky (not saying my Hold Spell is great or anything ).

[Tattered Rags]

Good analogy. Sometimes you lay 1 brick down (1 TW success) and sometimes more (multiple TW successes), but then you need to put down the mortar, like you said, before putting any more bricks down.

Except casting the spell doesn't knock it down. The point is that it is still standing after multiple castings. You kick it down when you need to build a different wall (that is, you stop Hold Thread or the duration expires and you don't extend it).

Yeah, description would be clunky, but that's for people who really like the idea to hammer out.

[The Undying]

OH, I didn't get this the first time, but you'd looking at this as more of a reusable pattern? Basically, you go through the effort of building up this held pattern, and as long as you keep paying the Strain, you can just keep casting the spell without weaving again? Since this is a fairly significant change, I'll call this Resilient Pattern.

Example:

I have a Resilient Pattern of Rank 5. I want to create the spell pattern for Earth Darts (Weaving Difficulty of 5) with four extra threads (yeah, unrealistic combination, but go with it ). Turn 1, I roll Threadweaving, get 1 success (1 of 4 threads), I want to hold it, so I need to roll Resilient Pattern (Strain accumulated = 1) and achieve at least 1 success on the roll (5). Turn 2, I roll Threadweaving, get 2 success (3 of 4 threads), I want to hold it, so I need to roll Resilient Pattern (1 more Strain, total accumulated = 2) and achieve at least 3 success on the roll (15) (1 from the previous thread, plus two for the two new threads). Turn 3, I roll Threadweaving, get 1+ success (4 of 4 threads), I want to hold it, so I need to roll Resilient Pattern (1 more Strain, total accumulated = 3) and achieve at least 4 success on the roll (20) (3 from the previous threads, plus one for the last new threads). Assuming I've succeeded, and I continue to pay the 1 Strain per turn, I can just cast this four thread Earth Darts over and over again?

If that's a good example, I'd afraid that's TOO good. 1 Strain per turn to cast a 4 thread spell is a bargain, especially in light of the old Wizard Talent/Knack that allowed a magician to skip threads at a cost of 3 Strain per thread. Now, in general, I like the ability - it's cool, it's useful, and it's powerful. I think it needs a high cost (maybe 1 Strain per turn per thread) just because of how useful it is. Also, simply because of the power level involved, I'm not sure this is Journeyman worthy - I'd dare say this should be Master tier.

[Tattered Rags]

(1) That's actually harder than what I meant. I imagined you need to get 1 success per unheld thread before rolling the next Threadweaving test.
(a) So, your example....
Round 1, weave 1 thread, roll hold thread and get at least 1 success
Round 2, weave 2 threads, roll hold thread and get at least 2 successes
Round 3, weave final thread, roll hold thread and get at least 1 success
Rounds 4+, cast!

(b) Change it up! Same as before except...
Round 2, only got 1 success on hold thread
Round 3, roll hold thread for at least 1 success (extra successes are lost), weave final thread
Round 4, roll hold thread for at least 1 success, then cast!

Hold Thread is a simple action, so it can be done in that order.

(2) I'm not a good judge of how powerful it is. Potentially it could be limited to 1 thread per character Discipline tier in whichever Discipline's Threadweaving you are using. That would lock down some of the power at Journeyman. It means learning it with Versatility is useless, but also means you start with being able to hold 2 threads (2 at Journeyman when you get it, 3 at Warden, 4 at Master).

I don't have any problems with that limit AND 1 strain per turn per held thread. Example (a) above would be 1 strain, 3 strain, 4 strain, then 4 strain every following turn. (b) would be 1 strain, 2 strain, 3 strain, 4 strain, then 4 strain every later turn.

Sounds crippling, but perhaps that would be justified. As it is, it's exactly what Hold Thread does now, but with more threads.

Other possibilities exist for even more complicated limitations, I'm sure.

[Tattered Rags]

Another idea is to pay 1 strain per round to hold the threads, but everytime you cast it you must pay X strain in addition to any other strain costs the spell normally requires and the 1 strain per round the talent normally requires. Where X is equal to the number of threads being held. This represents both the small effort to hold the threads to the spell pattern and the greater effort to hold it under the stress of pushing magical energy through it.

[The Undying]

As it is, it's exactly what Hold Thread does now, but with more threads.

You and I may have different reads on what the as-is Hold Thread accomplishes. My read is that is does NOT change the mechanics of spell casting: spells are temporary patterns, they are not reusable, and once astral energy is pushed through them, they are destroyed. All Hold Thread allows is for the magician to put the Spellcasting test off until later.

Example:

Setup: About to pursue someone, need to hit them as soon as you catch up.
Turn 1: Threadweaving test to prepare Fireball. Hold Thread test to postpone Spellcasting. 1 Strain paid for Hold Thread. Usual move for round.
Turn 2: 1 Strain paid for Hold Thread. Run (double move) after target.
Turn 3: 1 Strain paid for Hold Thread. Run (double move) after target.
Turn 4: 1 Strain paid for Hold Thread. Run (double move) after target. Now caught up to target.
Turn 5: 1 Strain paid for Hold Thread. Spellcasting test against target for held Fireball. Hold Thread effect auto-ends: spell pattern has been spent.

Am I correct in reading your posts that you think Hold Thread as-written allows that spell pattern to be reused?

Example:

Setup: In combat.
Turn 1: Threadweaving test to prepare Fireball. Hold Thread test to hold the pattern for repeated use. 1 Strain paid for Hold Thread.
Turn 2: 1 Strain paid for Hold Thread. Spellcasting test against target for held Fireball. Hold Thread effect keeps the spell pattern from being destroyed.
Turn 3: 1 Strain paid for Hold Thread. Spellcasting test against target for held Fireball. Hold Thread effect keeps the spell pattern from being destroyed.
Turn 4: 1 Strain paid for Hold Thread. Spellcasting test against target for held Fireball. Hold Thread effect keeps the spell pattern from being destroyed.
Turn 5: Adept decides no to pay Strain for Hold Thread, or Hold Thread RANK turns have expired with Adept not wanting to re-test. Fireball spell pattern unravels.

If Hold Thread is indeed the latter then this is a much better Talent than I gave it credit for. I don't think it is, though...

[The Undying]

Here's the Talent text, with relevant text to this my last post highlighted:

Hold Thread
Step: Rank + WIL Action: Simple
Strain: 1 (see text) Skill Use: No

The magician weaves a thread to a spell and then holds it until he is ready to cast. This talent can only be used with spells that require a single spell thread to be woven. Normally, these are spells with a “Threads: 1” notation (see the Spell Magic chapter, p. 246), but if the magician is casting the spell from an Enhanced Matrix, or using the option to weave additional threads, it can also include spells with a “Threads: 0” or “Threads: 2” notation.

The magician makes a Thread Weaving test, as normal. If successful, he then makes a Hold Thread test against the spell’s Weaving Difficulty. If successful, the spell thread is held within its spell matrix for a number of rounds up to the magician’s Hold Thread rank. The magician may make a Spellcasting test to cast the spell during any of these rounds, but takes 1 Strain for each round the thread is held.

If the spell has not been cast by the final round of the talent’s effect, the magician may make another Hold Thread test against the spell’s Weaving Difficulty. If successful, he continues to hold the spell for a number of rounds equal to his Hold Thread rank. The talent duration can be extended this way for as long as the magician continues to make successful Hold Thread tests. If a Hold Thread test fails, the magician must cast the spell in the following round, or he loses it. While using this talent to hold a spell, the magician cannot make any other Thread Weaving or Spellcasting tests, other than for the spell he is currently holding.

[Tattered Rags]

No, no, you're right. I'm mixing things up in my head. Hold Thread, as written, only delays casting. I forgot that if you slightly misinterpreted it, then it could provide repeated spellcasting.

Sorry, father of three kids here and not sleeping well lately!

[Tattered Rags]

Hmmmm.....

The lines in its description "...and then holds it until he is ready to cast" and "If the spell has not been cast..." imply that this thread is usable only for a single casting, after which the thread disappears. This is the likely interpretation.

See! See! I knew things!

[The Undying]

Is cool, Mista Rags, we got you.

Given the correction, do you still think that being able to make repeated tests in order to layer on multiple threads for the one-time suspended casting is a "good enough" fix?