Hold Thread (and replacement thereof)

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Kosmit
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Re: Hold Thread

Post by Kosmit » Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:58 am

Seriously, the more I think about it, the more I like it.

I thought versatility would be good for Master Scouts but think of master Illusionist who want to not only be illusion version of someone else but also real version. Like with double nature of their spells.

As for wizard...
Glyph of Magic Mastery
Adept puts small symbol on a grimoire he is holding. He can cast spells from it with bonus to Wizardry Step equal to talent Rank. If the spell is from other discipline, he can use Glyph of Magic Mastery Rank in place of that discipline Thread Weaving Rank. Spells must be cast using casting from a grimoire option.

Nethermancer

Blood Summon
Sometimes you need a help of a spirit without preparation. To answer that Nerthermancers learned how to sacrifice their own life force to speed up the summoning process. Adepts suffer blood magic damage equal to the Spirit Rating he wants to summon and makes Blood Summon test. If it is successful the spirit is summoned for Blood Summon Rank rounds. If adept want to summon the spirit in traditional ritual way, he can sacrifice his blood to get Blood Summon Rank as a bonus to Summoning test.

Dyrmagnos
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Re: Hold Thread

Post by Dyrmagnos » Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:51 pm

I have another propose how to make Hold Thread quite usable.

Just add to description sentence that you can hold additional thread that was waved in last threadweaving test and was not used to cast this spell - for example you are casting fireball - 2 successes in threadweaving test - you can use this additional thread to cast fireball with 1 thread less in next few rounds.

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The Undying
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Re: Hold Thread

Post by The Undying » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:34 pm

@Dyrmagnos

A lot of this ideas have been previously discussed in the Thread. There's a general discussion at one point that amounts to "what would it take for this to be useful to you," and these topics are scattered around there. Opinions verify too wildly to codify - which isn't bad, per say, it just means that if general consensus is "change the Talent rather than ditch it," it's very likely to have a different result at nearly every table.

@Kosmit

It's important to keep in mind this is a Journeyman Talent so any replacements need to be at that power level. Any replacements also need to maintain balance in the system overall. I'd say all your suggests are just way overpowered, period, rather than just at their Circle.

Versatility: No. just no. I'd heavily recommend looking back at the huge library of published Disciplines. If you can't find a single instance when this is made available to a Discipline, let alone as a Discipline Talent, I would put this squarely in "not good idea" territory.

Wizard glyph: with the exception of replacement effects (not in the way you wrote it but in the way of Willforce), +rank bonus really isn't a thing in ED4 anymore. It's +2/success. So out of the gate, this is too strong. Next, the ability to replace any other Threadweaving Talent is just something I'd never allow at my table. It trivializes a huge aspect of the system.

Blood Summon: as above with the +rank thing. Fast summonings are not a thing anymore in ED4, and the proposed cost is far too low in my opinion if it were. The second power also basically makes one of the Discipline abilities picked up at Journeyman uselsss - this would always outperform it.

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Kosmit
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Re: Hold Thread

Post by Kosmit » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:12 pm

That's why It provides a bonus to make journeyman talents better...

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The Undying
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Re: Hold Thread

Post by The Undying » Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:27 am

For what it's worth, I added a summary to my original post. Figured it might be help for people that come along after the fact and don't want to wade through all the discussion.

Tattered Rags
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Re: Hold Thread

Post by Tattered Rags » Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:36 am

The Undying wrote:For what it's worth, I added a summary to my original post. Figured it might be help for people that come along after the fact and don't want to wade through all the discussion.
Nice.
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Under the Stars

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Telarus
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Re: Hold Thread

Post by Telarus » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:13 am

Hm, I've been cruising through the thread and thought of something. How does one prevent a mage from casting? Prevent them from completing the Astral Arc, usually by blindfolding them (let's assume this also blocks astral "sight"). With Hold Thread, the mage can start a pretty hefty spell and wait until some-one touches them or something else makes them sure of their target's location in order to cast it. Without Hold Thread, a tied up and blindfolded mage, or one suffering from blinding or darkness effects seems pretty helpless, unless you plan on grappling your target, then threadweaving, and then casting.

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The Undying
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Re: Hold Thread

Post by The Undying » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:42 am

Telarus wrote:How does one prevent a mage from casting? Prevent them from completing the Astral Arc, usually by blindfolding them (let's assume this also blocks astral "sight").
Almost every single spell has somatic components to them, some larger than others. Very few can be cast with bound hands.

Not all spells require sight, either optical or astral. Spells that are target "self" would easily fall into this category, and I'd argue that target "touch" also falls into this category.

Threadweaving is really a per-table thing, as far as I can tell and based on Mataxes's comment. You either determine it requires a somatic component or it's all mental, and if it requires a somatic component, how much and what is the mechanical impact (in this instance, is wiggling ones fingers with bound wrists enough).

So, a 0 thread spell with target "self" or "touch" that manifests flame in the targets's hand should, in theory, be able to be cast and to burn through rope bindings, as long as it doesn't require any other somatic components ("fire just appears engulfing the hand" versus "magician claps and, as a result, both hands are engulfed in flamed"). Now, the magician will very likely suffer some damage (the fire, undoubtedly, doesn't hurt his hands, but not necessarily other parts of his both, and fire on flammable material like rope and clothing is NOT the same fire as on the hands), but this would totally work for someone bound, gagged, blindfolded, and ear-cuffed (i.e., the standard D&D anti-caster trick).

Telarus
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Re: Hold Thread

Post by Telarus » Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:49 am

Yeah, it's really hard to take casters out of the action without rendering them unconscious. There's a really cool moment in the novel 'Mother Speaks' (I think) where J'role's ex-wife, the Elementalist he rescued from the Blood Wound when she was a young girl, gets captured by Therans (who simply bind her hands because they don't know she's a caster) and she proceeds to mess them the hell up.

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Kosmit
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Re: Hold Thread

Post by Kosmit » Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:18 am

In 3ED I used orichalcum lined bags on heads. In 4ED astral sight can no longer penetrate solid objects so blindfolding is enough in most cases. Or sleeping poison :D

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