Hold Thread (and replacement thereof)

[Dougansf]

I've always been confused at the value of this Talent as well.

I think the main issue is the limit of only 1 Thread. Though, remembering Ricochet Attack which had as many threads as you wanted, having a limit is probably a good idea.

[RazanMG]

Instead of using this talent its better to declare that you are weaving threads, round after round. For a low Durability mage, as written this talent is mostly useless.

Only situation I can see its being used is:
You are going to chase someone, so you will use Standard Action to move. So before chase you use Hold Thread, you run as fast as you can, when you catch you have one thread ready.

Any other situations you can think of?

[The Undying]

Pursuit is a good example I hadn't thought of, good idea. That brings us to two use cases: ambush and pursuit.

This seems like a "when I absolutely, positively HAVE TO get my spell off on turn zero" Talent. The problem seems to be that those situations happen far too infrequently and the cost for the Talent has been ratcheted up unusably high. I would argue that this is really only valuable for a two-thread spell of some variety (two thread natively and in E Matrix, one thread native with in E Matrix with a bonus thread, or zero thread native with a pre-selected thread in E Matrix with a bonus thread on top of that). Shy of that, much better off burning the two Strain to Reattune on the Fly and slide your one thread spell into your E Matrix, still allows you to roll Spellcasting immediately. Even in the case of a spell that is natively single thread with an option thread, I'd be hard pressed to think of a time where 1 Strain per turn would be worth that extra thread (maybe range extension in the case of pursuit).

Would still love to hear from someone that's actually used this.

That aside, if you were going to fix this, what do you think is the minimum to get this out of the dust bin?

1) Reduce the cost. (Even if 1 Strain per effect was too little, maybe just go to 2 Strain per effect, keep it inline with Reattunement).

2) Expand the scope to allow later use. (Can make the test on the turn after Threadweaving when you would otherwise perform your Spellcasting, a la my original example)

3) Expand the scope to allow more threads. (Cost model might have to be revisited)

4) Some combination of the above.

5) Replace it. (A bad Talent is a bad Talent. Could either take a lightweight approach and just say players can select one of their Option Talents for the Journeyman tier and make that their Discipline Talent for that Circle, or throw out some recommendations for "This should be the official replacement Discipline Talent for Discipline X" ideas)

[The Undying]

Here would be my personal recommendation: options 1, 2, and 3, effectively making this a new Talent replacing the old one.

Hold Spell
Step: Rank+WIL
Action: Simple
Strain: * (see text)
Skill Use: No
The magician weaves a spell and then holds it ready to cast. The magician must complete all Thread Weaving tests as normal. On the turn of the final Thread Weaving test, or on the subsequent turn in place of a Spellcasting test, the Adept makes a Hold Spell test to hold the completed spell thread for casting in a later round. If successful, the spell thread is held within its spell matrix for a number of rounds up to the magician’s Hold
Spell rank. The magician may make a Spellcasting test to cast the spell during any of these rounds, at which point the spell pattern is destroyed as normal.

The Hold Spell test costs a number of Strain equal to the number of threads in the spell, plus one additional Strain. The difficulty of the Hold Spell test is equal to the spell’s Weaving Difficulty. The Adept must obtain a number of successes on Hold Spell test equal to the number of threads in the spell.

If the spell has not been cast by the final round of the talent’s effect, the magician may make another Hold Spell test as described above. If successful, the Adept continues to hold the spell for a number of rounds equal to his Hold Spell rank. The talent duration can be extended this way for as long as the magician continues to make Hold Spell tests with the required number of successes. If a Hold Spell test fails, or the number of required successes are not obtained, the magician must cast the spell in the following round (or on the current round when used in place of an initial Spellcasting test), or the spell is lost. While using this talent to hold a spell, the magician cannot make any other Thread Weaving or Spellcasting tests, other than for the spell he is currently holding.

Eristed, an Elementalist, is engaged in combat with his companions against a heavily armored foe. He has spent the last two rounds Thread Weaving an empowered Earth Darts spell (Weaving Difficulty 5), adding three (3) extra threads to increase the armor penalty effect of the spell to a total of -8. However, on the turn he would cast the spell, his companion Minuial is knocked unconscious by the enemy. If Eristed devotes his next full turn to the effort, he can drag Minuial to safety away from the enemy while his remaining companion, Shale, holds off the foe. However, he does not want to lose the progress invested in Weaving the current spell. Eristed expends four (4) Strain, equal to the number of threads in his spell plus one, and attempts a Hold Spell test. He achieves a 12, succeeding on the Hold Spell test (Difficulty 5) but not obtaining enough successes (2 successes versus a 3 thread spell). Eristed is now faced with the difficulty decision to Spellcast the spell in the hopes it will be enough to allow Shale to deal a lethal blow or let the spell unravel itself while he saves his downed companion...

[Ninja edit: realized that the Strain cost as previously written made this Talent free for 0-thread spells. Can't have that. Bumped the cost to 1+ Thread Count. Makes it a little bit clunkier, but prevents free use, AND it bumps the Strain to 2 for one-thread spells, hopefully accommodating the apparent design decision that 1 Strain per use for 1 thread spells was too cheap.]

[etherial]

This is completely off the cuff and probably broken, but this is how I would love to see this Talent work:

Hold Thread
Step: Rank + Will
Action: Simple
Strain: 1 (see text)
Skill Use: lolno

The Magician funnels magical energy into a Spell Matrix, creating a repository of astral energy that can be used to power their Spells. The Spellcaster takes 1 strain and rolls their Hold Thread Step against a Difficulty equal to the Reattunement Difficulty of the Spell. The Matrix may hold one Thread in this repository for each Success garnered on this test. The repository lasts for Hold Thread Rank Rounds, any Threads still in in the repository are lost if the effect expires or Hold Thread is used on that Spell Matrix again. At the end of each round, the Spellcaster takes 1 Strain for each Thread stored in the repository.

Threads stored in the repository may be used when casting the Spell in the Matrix as if they were freshly tied and are consumed when used.

Essentially, it can be used in two ways:

1) To hold multiple Threads for a given ambush/delayed spell at great cost.
2) To carry extra successes of a Thread Weaving Test onto a future casting of the same Spell.

[Tattered Rags]

Other examples of when holding a Thread would be useful:
Playing royal guard to the king as he meets with the enemy general to demand surrender before the battle. You expect betrayal, despite promises of safe conduct, so you keep a spell threaded and ready.
Exploring the Kaer, you hear noises. Unsure of what it might be, you prepare a spell.
Flashnard the Illustrious will be home any minute, so you get ready. This will be hilarious!
Grognak the Orkslayer has been murdering his kin throughout Bartertown. You found him and are sneaking into his hiding place. Hopefully he's asleep, but you're ready with a spell if not.

Basically, any "waiting for a viable target" scenario. But, these are fairly uncommon, as The Undying points out. Who would want to invest in the Talent with its costs and limitations and limited use? I, too, would like to hear from someone when has actually used it.

As for my contributions to a change, I'd keep the mechanics basically the same.

No limit to the number of threads (or 1 thread per tier?). 1 strain per round starting with the first held thread. Each successfully created thread must be held before another Threadweaving test can be made. Each success on a Hold Thread check holds 1 woven thread. Once all threads are held, then the next Threadweaving test is made. Etc., etc.

[Lys]

[Ninja edit: realized that the Strain cost as previously written made this Talent free for 0-thread spells. Can't have that. Bumped the cost to 1+ Thread Count. Makes it a little bit clunkier, but prevents free use, AND it bumps the Strain to 2 for one-thread spells, hopefully accommodating the apparent design decision that 1 Strain per use for 1 thread spells was too cheap.]

It's unclear to me why you would want to use Hold Thread on a 0-thread spell in the first place. There are no threads to hold, you can just use Spellcasting any round you want.

[The Undying]

@Rags

Great examples.

There's also the question of manual dexterity and Thread Weaving (TW) tests. I kinda went back and forth with my current GM on the topic, and in the end, we went with his vision that TW tests require active hand movements during the Standard action. (This doesn't mesh well with things like "Earth Spell", spells that end up filling a hand while empowering future spells, but I digress.) So, if you know you're about to be in a situation where you won't be able to perform the somatic component of TW, either because of full hands, shackles, or desire to remain inconspicuous, then this is an option.

But, again, and it seems you agree, for most magicians, these kinds of things wouldn't happen very often. I can easily see where having this ability would be highly desirable for certain niches, but if anything, that highlights that this really should be an Option Talent rather than a Discipline Talent.

Your revision to Hold Thread (HT) is interesting. It addresses the shortcoming with usefulness by allowing stacked effects for multiple threads. My fear is that you end up with a CRIPPLING cost: if you want to bank three threads, for example, you end up paying 6 Strain before your first real "fully banked" turn (turn 1, TW, HT, 1 Strain; turn 2, 1 strain from first HT, TW, HT, 1 Strain; turn 3, 2 strain from first and second HT, TW, HT, 1 Strain). There's also a bit of a problem with multiple successes on on a single TW test. I guess you could expand the wording for HT so that it can be used one per turn for each TW test success.

@Lys

Good call. I ended up getting stuck in the weeds on the numbers versus the mechanics, forgot what I was really doing.

@etherial

Neat idea. Very different, mechanically, but nothing wrong with that. Maybe we call that Thread Battery to help distinguish. Why'd you go with the Reattunement difficulty? Just to help control power level?

[etherial]

@etherial

Neat idea. Very different, mechanically, but nothing wrong with that. Maybe we call that Thread Battery to help distinguish. Why'd you go with the Reattunement difficulty? Just to help control power level?

Because you're Targeting a Spell Matrix the way the power is worded, and I wanted something a little more appropriate than the Matrix's Rank or Death Rating.

[Tattered Rags]

Your revision to Hold Thread (HT) is interesting. It addresses the shortcoming with usefulness by allowing stacked effects for multiple threads. My fear is that you end up with a CRIPPLING cost: if you want to bank three threads, for example, you end up paying 6 Strain before your first real "fully banked" turn (turn 1, TW, HT, 1 Strain; turn 2, 1 strain from first HT, TW, HT, 1 Strain; turn 3, 2 strain from first and second HT, TW, HT, 1 Strain). There's also a bit of a problem with multiple successes on on a single TW test. I guess you could expand the wording for HT so that it can be used one per turn for each TW test success.

My intent was 1 strain per round, not per thread nor use of the Hold Thread Talent. Just 1 strain while Hold Thread is active. So it's 3 Strain total if it takes 3 turns to Hold all the threads.

And my other intent was that multiple successes had to be held before the next TW roll. So 2 successes on the TW test means you need 2 successes on the HT test before your next TW test. This pushes one to keep HT at the same level as TW, as it would only be allowed once per turn. I just didn't write it out clearly. Sorry.

So in the above 3 turn example, it's possible that all the threads could be woven in 1 turn and then held in that turn.

Not sure what the duration should be, or if it should be modified from the original. I'd say keep it the same.