One spell to end all healing

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Szuzzz
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One spell to end all healing

Post by Szuzzz » Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:25 pm

There is one Elementalist spell called Grove renewal (PG p.282), which I'm concerned about. If I'm reading it's description correctly it can replace all other healing in your games. And it can do it as soon as circle 5.

How is that possible? Let’s take a look at healing capacity of standard adept of 5th circle.

With 15 TOU he can do recovery test with step 6.
Additionally he can use booster potion which will give him +8 bonus. So step 14 = 14 points of healing on average (- wounds penalty).

Now let’s look at Grove renewal:
It works for rank + 5 rounds and additional 2 rounds for each success on spellcasting test, so about 12 rounds. Heals one point per rounds. So 12 rounds = 12 points of healing, without healing aids (which obviously costs silver), and without taking wounds into account. Not bad!
But, that’s not all. The spell allows threads, each adds one target. So from one recovery test three characters are healed for 12 hp = 36 hp.
Also Elementalist at 5th circle can add another target for point of karma. Four targets = 48 hp. And that's without even trying to optimize this effect, by use of group pattern for spellcasting talent (another 7 hp per character on average, so 76 overall).

Even, by using all possible healing aids you can only get as high with recovery test step as 36 plus karma, that's 40 (- wounds) on average. And that costs you 350 silver for each test (TOU+booster potion+healing potion+heat food+air mattress 6+8+8+8+6=36). Oh yeah and that’s only true for morning test, every other will be just 30, without the mattress.

Am I missing something or it is supposed to work like that? In current state Grove renewal is only offcombat healing that matters from 5th Circle onward.

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The Undying
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Re: One spell to end all healing

Post by The Undying » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:05 am

Yes, Grove Renewal is pretty great. However, there are some problems with your observations.

Just for clarity, let's park the spell text here.
Grove Renewal (Player's Guide, pg 282) wrote:Wood. This spell heals the target a small amount each round it is in effect. The magician holds some dried plant matter in his fingers, blows it away, and makes a Spellcasting test against the target’s Mystic Defense. If successful, the plant matter is returned to vibrancy and floats around the target briefly, surrounding them with a momentary green glow. Either the target or the magician must spend a Recovery test and the target heals 4 damage each round on their Initiative. Outside of combat, healing is reduced to 1 damage per round and is not affected by additional threads.
1) It's not a single Recovery Test per spell, it's a single recovery test per target. You see this in the text "Either the target or the magician must spend a Recovery test", with extra threads adding targets. That takes out a lot of your perceived economy.

2) Most palliatives cannot be used on the first recovery test of the day. The first recovery test is taken upon waking it is not something that is differed until the Adept is ready.
Recovering from Damage (Player's Guide, pg 381) wrote:Upon waking from a full night’s rest, an injured character (with 1 or more Current Damage) must make a Recovery test.
This is a small point, as it doesn't subtract from the fact that Grove Renewal can make a bigger impact in some situations. However, it is still a valid point - mainly in that things look Booster/Healing potions aren't available. Plus, while Air Mattress is indeed a healing spell, I consider it more of a recovery spell because it reduces rest time, significantly if the extra threads are pushed into that rather than healing. I think this spell is significantly valuable even if never used for HEALING.

3) Recovery Tests are a scarce resource, by design. Arguably, one of the biggest things Grove Renewal brings to the table is that the Elementalist can use their own Recovery Tests rather than the target, and the Elementalist will often have some tests to spare. However, barring that, Grove Renewal is actually not THE BEST way to spell the target's scarce available tests. As you mention, it's pretty easy to get a natural recovery test higher than Grove Renewal results, assuming a bunch of stuff tacked on. When a Namegiver only gets 2-3 tests per day, healing ~20-25 damage (6 TOU + 8 Booster + 8 Heat Food + Karma if Discipline allows) is simply better than healing ~15 damage. You make the point about the cost in silver for the palliatives, but a booster potion isn't that expensive and at the end of the day, a few hundred silver is not going to break the bank for adventuring Journeyman Adepts.

4) Other palliatives may be available to particular Disciplines or via thread Items. This can bump up natural Recovery Test use to higher value. This builds on item 3 above. Depending on your GM (old rules said you could only stack three healing sources, that might be gone now), you can easily get Step 40 Recovery Test.

So, is Grove Renewal good? Yeah. In it's niche (cast during combat or going into combat), it is INSANE (can easily heal 100 if the combat stretches on long enough), and available at a time when healing is difficult to come by. Does it displace all other healing, or all other healing spells? I would say no.
Last edited by The Undying on Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

Dyrmagnos
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Re: One spell to end all healing

Post by Dyrmagnos » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:15 am

Outside of combat, healing is reduced to 1 damage per round and is not affected by additional threads.

So its 10 (at circle 5) x2 = 20 with point of karma.

It still makes any other way of healing not worth to use.

When you wave a thread (5 Spellcasting) to Group Pattern it changes to 30 per test + when you have more time can easily use Earthstaff + Grimoire casting + average 2 additional success from test = 46 per Recovery Test outside of combat at circle 5.

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The Undying
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Re: One spell to end all healing

Post by The Undying » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:31 am

Where are you getting "x2"?
Grove Renewal (Player's Guide, pg 282) wrote:Outside of combat, healing is reduced to 1 damage per round and is not affected by additional threads.
So, in your example, it is 10 x1 = 10.

There's also no karma available. Grove Renewal is not a Recovery Test, it CONSUMES a Recovery Test. Therefore, Disciplines that have Karma abilities saying "Can spend Karma on recovery test" cannot spend karma on this. I'm not even really sure how that would work, regardless.

You're also using numbers that I don't really see making sense. You are using a Circle 5 Adept as an example, but then say then talk about a maxed out Group Pattern Thread tied to their Spellcasting. That's 5,000 LP - I extremely doubt a Circle 5 Adept would have that.

Regardless, let's wind things forward a bit and assume we have a Circle 8 Elementalist with a total of 12 Spellcasting between all his bonuses. That puts the magician at a base of 17 rounds. Then, for giggles, let's give the results three successes. We're now at 23 rounds. As I noted above, it is only one health per round, so that is 23 health over 23 rounds, or 4 minutes.

Now, let's take one of the many Disciplines that has the karma ability that can be used on recovery test, and lets assume a Step 6 for Toughness. We have:
- 6, base Toughness
- 8, Heat Food
- 8, Booster Potion
- 4, Karma

We are ALREADY at 26, beating out Grove Renewal. Even if the GM imposed Rule of Three, that Adept can still stack an extra bonus on there, likely for a ~6, bring them to Step ~32.
Last edited by The Undying on Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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The Undying
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Re: One spell to end all healing

Post by The Undying » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:41 am

Keep in mind, I'm not saying Grove Renewal isn't GOOD, I'm just saying it isn't the be-all, end-all of healing. Personally, I think it's incredible. Elementalists get a pretty solid number of Recovery Tests to being with. They get an extra one at Circle 7. AND they can get more thanks to Fire Heal. Couple all that with the fact that they are usually ranged fighter, meaning they shouldn't be taking much in the way of damage, and you get a pretty nice pool of Recovery Tests that often go to waste. The ability to use the Elementalist's spare tests for Grove Renewal is whack-a-doo awesome, and since these are basically free healing to the target, all the math I've provided goes out the window (+any number of health is always greater than +0). However, when the target is the one burning the Recovery Test, then there are pros and cons.

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Mataxes
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Re: One spell to end all healing

Post by Mataxes » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:44 am

The Undying wrote:Grover Renewal
No challenge is intended to Muppet character rights.

:D
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The Undying
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Re: One spell to end all healing

Post by The Undying » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:48 am

Nah, man - Grover Renewal hangs out with the Rastafarian Obsidimon Troubadour. Their Group Pattern is named "Why is The Undying So Bad At Werds??!!1!1shift+one".

And now I'm sad. :? lol

[Mataxes was referencing my consistently saying "Grover Renewal". I went back and kicked my copy-pasta, for sanity's sake.]

Dyrmagnos
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Re: One spell to end all healing

Post by Dyrmagnos » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:08 am

The Undying wrote:Where are you getting "x2"?
From 5-th circle Elementalist ability.

Your calculation assume that you have a lot of booster potion for just out of combat healing (in our group is a real problem with money and situation when you have no cash to advance in circle is common).

Second- you request having karma to Recovery Tests and no wounds - we all have for example 2 Blood Wounds for breaking oath + 3 more from combat and remove 17 from your final result

Elementalist additional has 1-2 recovery tests for free every day.

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The Undying
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Re: One spell to end all healing

Post by The Undying » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:31 pm

I guess I'm still not following on this "2x" thing.

If you're referring to the 5th Circle Karma ability that allows an additional ally target when casting a spell, that doesn't provide any benefit here. First, it's an additional target, and as I mentioned earlier, Grove Renewal costs one Recovery Test (RT) per target, not per spell. Grabbing an extra target with this ability only saves time, it doesn't increase economy by using the RT twice. Second, and I'm just assuming your logic by reading into your "2x", you cannot double-cast a spell onto a single target. That'd take two RT, and whenever a target would receive the same effect, one of them gets cancelled out so that only one instance of that effect is active. I believe the order of precedence is strongest stays (even if shorter), then if both same strength, longest stays.

As to the state of affairs on your characters, I'd personally congratulate your GM - sounds like he's keeping your group pretty hungry, making money and healing scarce, which builds drama. However, if you're running around with five wounds, I think you have bigger problems than how to get an additional 3 or 4 health points per recovery (personally, I'm not sure how anything ever gets done with a -5 penalty to all tests). Someone in your group should learn Alchemy (as a Talent preferably) so you can start making your own healing potions.

We're back to my statement about pros and cons. It sounds like your group is looking for the lowest cost healing option since money is scarce. In that case, yes, you can't really beat Grove Renewal for efficiency as a "I can only do one thing" spell (since you can't stack Heat Food or Air Mattress with Grove Renewal - the first two are part of a RT, the latter is not a RT it just consumes an RT). HOWEVER, some of my earlier points also still stand: you and your companions are going to burn a RT upon waking, there's no way to stop this or suspend it. Heat Food and Air Mattress still provide significant benefit for that RT. Which brings us back around to my oft-stated conclusion: Is Grove Renewal great? Yes. Is it the be-all, end-all of healing, or healing spells? No, not in my opinion.

MetalBoar
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Re: One spell to end all healing

Post by MetalBoar » Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:16 am

Someone in your group should learn Alchemy (as a Talent preferably) so you can start making your own healing potions.
What are the options for learning Alchemy (or any skill that doesn't have a corresponding talent) as a talent? I think I must have missed the rules for that...

Thanks!

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