question: spellcasting mechanics

[Bonhumm]

I've finally decided to try and figure out exactly how the spellcasting/matrix/threadweaving etc mechanic works and I have (GASP!) questions!

First: about the Additional Threads.

Page 256 Additional Thread Limit Table states that a 1st Circle spell could only have 1 Additional Thread woven into it. HOWEVER, the example of page 270 says about the 1st Circle Earth Darts spell: 'If a magician weaves two additional threads, he could increase the range by 10 yards and increase the Damage Step by 2' but since it's a 1st circle spell then it should not be possible to cast more than 1 additional threads no?

Is it a mistake or did I miss-understand something?

Also: About the relation between Additional Threads and Successes.

Do they stack? Basically, from my understanding, is that to get Additional Threads you have to roll Additional successes for each thread.

So (example), if I weave(?) 2 Additional Threads to the 2nd Circle spell 'Icy Wind' do I get 2 X +2 Effect step (because of 2 success) AND (example) get a 2 X +10 square yards for the Extra Threads?

No matter what is the answer to the previous question: what about spells that REQUIRES extra Threads (example: 2nd Circle 'Fingers of Wind'). If I score 2 successes I do get to cast those 2 Threads right away but do I also get the effect from the successes (2 X +2 minutes duration effect)?

I'm sure I'll come with more question later on, but let's begin with those.

Thank you.

[Panda]

Greetings,

Let me see if I can render assistance. Please let me know if anything here doesn't make sense, could use clarification, etc.

1) The number of additional threads a spellcaster can weave is based on the Circle of the spellcaster, not the spell.

Thus a First Circle Wizard can weave one additional thread to a Wizard spell and a Fifth Circle Wizard can weave two additional threads to a Wizard spell. A Fifth Circle Wizard/First Circle Elementalist can weave two additional threads to Wizard spells and one additional thread to Elementalist spells.

2) Each success on a Thread Weaving test allows the spellcaster to weave one thread. Before you start casting a spell, you determine how many threads are required total. This is the required threads and any additional threads (deciding what those additional threads do before you start casting). There's no specific interaction between the number of successes on a Thread Weaving test and additional threads, other than the former gives better usage of the latter.

If an Elementalist is casting Earth Darts with two additional threads (increasing that sweet, sweet Physical Armor penalty to -6) and gets three successes on their Elementalist (Thread Weaving) test, they weave all the necessary threads, needing only two to complete the threads in one round. This does leave one success unused; as an aside, this is an area knacks explore.

Hopefully this helps. Please let me know if it does not.

Best regards,

Morgan

[Bonhumm]

1) The number of additional threads a spellcaster can weave is based on the Circle of the spellcaster, not the spell.

I obviously rolled a 1 on my read-or-write-the-rules test. Thank you for clarifying.

There's no specific interaction between the number of successes on a Thread Weaving test and additional threads, other than the former gives better usage of the latter.

Oh, I think I get it now, so in a spell description:

the 'Success Level' section concerns successes on the SPELL CASTING roll while the 'Extra Thread' section concerns successes on the THREAD WEAVING roll.

Is that it?

Thanks again, me no can't brain!

ALSO: About the 'concentration' part. It does says that, if the caster gets damaged while concentrating/sustaining a spell, he has to do a will test against the damage or lose concentration thus stopping the spell. What about wounds and especially Knockdown? It would theoretically be possible for a caster to maintain his concentration on an attack that damages him enough to create a Wound but would he really be able to maintain concentration if he actually get knocked down by it?

[Panda]

No worries, you aren't the first and aren't likely to be the last when it comes to some of these confusions.

Also, I want to say you are correct, but since I may have misunderstood your question, I'm going to extra clear regarding you second question. Hopefully erasing any potential miscommunication.

"Success Levels" does indeed provide the effect for additional successes on a Spellcasting test.

"Extra Threads" is the menu of options you can choose from when weaving an extra thread. Additional successes on a Thread Weaving test do not affect this other than speeding up the process.

Returning to our Fifth Circle Elementalist casting Earth Darts.

They are dealing with a cruel GM who pitted the group against a cave crab (and without a dragon in sight!). Knowing cave crabs have freakish Physical Armor, the brave Elementalist does their group a solid and casts Earth Darts to bring it down, benefiting everyone. They could cast it immediately and just have the -2 Physical Armor, or could weave up to two extra threads. With a Weaving Difficulty of 5, the Elementalist is confident they can get two successes (result of at least 10) with one round of Thread Weaving.

From the Extra Thread options available to them, they choose Increase Effect (-2 Physical Armor) twice, which results in a -6 Physical Armor. Over time, this gives the most return on the action investment since nearly everyone targets Physical Armor (including the Elementalist on subsequent rounds).

On their turn, the Elementalist makes a Elementalism (Thread Weaving) test against Difficulty 5 (the Weaving Difficulty) as a Standard action. Their Elementalism Step is a respectable 13 and they spend Karma just to be sure (one round can make a big difference). Their result is 17, which is three successes. All the threads are woven in one round (0 required threads + 2 extra threads = 2 threads total; one thread woven per success on the test = three threads woven). Even though the number of successes would hypothetically allow them to weave three threads, the spell was only setup with two.

The next round, the Elementalist casts Earth Darts at the cave crab. They make a Spellcasting test against the cave crab's Mystic Defense, again spending Karma because they know every additional success increases the duration of that penalty by 2 rounds. They already invested time juicing up the penalty, why not get the most of it? The Elementalist's Spellcasting Step is an impressive 16 and get 20 as their result. The GM frowns and indicates this is a hit with two additional successes. Two additional successes means +4 rounds to the duration.

Next, the Elementalist makes the Effect test (WIL+3/Physical) with 10 damage as the result, which does nothing to the cave crab. However, it was hardly the point here. What matters is the cave crab is at -6 Physical Armor for the next 6 rounds.

The obsidiman Warrior, t'skrang Swordmaster, and troll Sky Raider all get wicked grins. Looks like crab legs are on the menu tonight.

Hopefully this offers more clarification? Please let me know if there are any questions, or anything further I can do.

Best regards,

Morgan

[Panda]

ALSO: About the 'concentration' part. It does says that, if the caster gets damaged while concentrating/sustaining a spell, he has to do a will test against the damage or lose concentration thus stopping the spell. What about wounds and especially Knockdown? It would theoretically be possible for a caster to maintain his concentration on an attack that damages him enough to create a Wound but would he really be able to maintain concentration if he actually get knocked down by it?

If the spellcaster can make the test, they make the test. This isn't easy by any stretch of the imagination, a pretty significant showing of willpower to shake off getting dropped like a sack of potatoes after a nasty wound, but that's the stuff of legends and heroes.

[Bonhumm]

Thank you very much for the tutorial.

Are you the guy who maintain Panda Gaming Grove? If so, VERY nice work there too.

One last detail tho:

Next, the Elementalist makes the Effect test (WIL+3/Physical) with 10 damage as the result, which does nothing to the cave crab.

What do you mean it does nothing to the crab? Do you mean the effects of the extra threads and/or extra success do not applies on the damage of that very spell? That would appear odd to me since the effect (Thread Weaving) was done (and completed) before the damage was applied through spellcasting.

[Mataxes]

It's a timing/balance thing. The reduction in physical armor happens (sort of) as a consequence of the damage. That is, the darts "tear" the armor, reducing its effectiveness in the future. So the damage applies first, then the reduction in armor.

The caster is able to benefit from it on subsequent casting.

PS: "Panda" is Morgan Weeks, my partner-in-crime whose name you also see in the credits. Panda Gaming Grove is his, and is a big part of the reason why I approached him to work on ED4.

[etherial]

What do you mean it does nothing to the crab? Do you mean the effects of the extra threads and/or extra success do not applies on the damage of that very spell? That would appear odd to me since the effect (Thread Weaving) was done (and completed) before the damage was applied through spellcasting.

The effect is the result of the Spellcasting. The Thread Weaving is the gathering of magical energy necessary to power the effect. Thread Weaving is like gathering Chi or charging an energy weapon, it had no effect if the Spellcasting roll fails.

[Panda]

Not a problem. As Josh noted, yes, that's my very neglected blog. I would feel worse about it (and I do feel bad) if I weren't spending the time I normally devote to that getting official work done. Thank you.

My apologies for leaving out specifically why it does nothing: the damage is less than the cave crab's armor. Nothing isn't accurate, it just fails to deal damage. The armor reduction still takes place.

Another detail regarding the order of damage followed by reduction. Applying the reduction first effectively increases the damage and reduces the Physical Armor for everyone else. This makes the reduction effect notably unbalanced, particularly with regard to other bonuses. As well, it creates a situation where one particular debuff can benefit itself where others are impossible, such as Defense reductions. This maintains the same order of operations for all such effects and allows more freedom in design space for offering debuffs.

[Aegharan]

Thread Weaving is like gathering Chi or charging an energy weapon, it had no effect if the Spellcasting roll fails.

Could Hold Thread work here? Spellcasting fails-> hold Thread (and take Strain) to try again next round?

Maybe that's how it becomes useful ^^