High Circle Preview: Sky Raider

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Lys
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Re: High Circle Preview: Sky Raider

Post by Lys » Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:45 am

So i'm objecting to what i see as unnecessary added complexity, and your solution is to make it... more complicated? The use of the ability is already limited, you can only use it once every ten minutes, which is a reasonable limit. Also the more times you use it per day the more expensive it is, which i don't think is reasoanble. Honestly i find it rather unpleasant to read about a cool new power and then go on to read about all the ways in which i'm limited in using it. Rather than trying to shackle the player's cool powers with burdensome limitations, i think it's better from a design perspective to simply not make those powers so strong they need such limitations. If you think the thunderbolt is too strong to let the players exempt their allies at will then make it weaker, and if it's too strong to allow its use multiple times a day (though i honestly don't see how that would be the case), then make it weaker still. All i want is the ability to blast my enemies with lightning without frying my friends or crippling myself with a gazillion wounds because it's the fifth fight of the day. Is that too much to ask?

Tattered Rags
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Re: High Circle Preview: Sky Raider

Post by Tattered Rags » Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:02 am

Regarding the stormcall exemptions, one could always put a strain cost to adding additional Namegivers beyond the basic exemption each time it's used in combat. I think that treads the middle ground nicely.
Adventure I'm running:
Under the Stars

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Under the Stars Postmortem

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The Undying
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Re: High Circle Preview: Sky Raider

Post by The Undying » Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:51 am

Lys wrote:So i'm objecting to what i see as unnecessary added complexity, and your solution is to make it... more complicated?
I believe my solution is less complicated, but to each their own. Personally, I'd rather have a bag of stones that I can take out X of in order to do Y with, versus "*yawn* ah, the morning sun, time for me to make my coffee and also note the RANK individuals that I shall exempt for the day on my lightning ability, everyone else be damned." If that wasn't clear, it was an ALTERNATE solution to limiting, not an ADDITION to the existing system. But, again, just personal preference.

I also like Rags's approach. Or, even taking it a step further: there are no per-day exemptions, the Adept can just take Strain per use to exempt one target, and this can be done up to RANK times per use.

Honestly, I'd say this is a bit of a "mountain of a mole hill" thing. If you have a player running a Sky Raider, the occasions where your entourage is larger than 13, or even approaches 13, are going to be few and far between. The biggest risk, really, is when you meet up with new and unexpected allies - they won't be covered until the next dawn. Same for NPCs - the chances that your party will be going up against a Sky Raider with more than 13 allies in tow are going to be few and far between. So, on one hand, yeah, this supports the idea that adding the daily exemptions is needless since it will hardly come into play, but on the other hand, it doesn't negate some design idea that the developers had in mind and just isn't clearly being communicated.
Last edited by The Undying on Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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The Undying
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Re: High Circle Preview: Sky Raider

Post by The Undying » Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:00 am

As an extra note, I personally like splashy abilities that have consequences. Stormcall fits very well into that category: even at the cost of a wound, the ability to roll what is likely a Step 30+ damage, which ignores armor, is insanely good, something that I as a player would use at every single opportunity. HOWEVER, if there is suddenly the chance that I could completely fry a new ally, which can have major consequences especially if they die, it creates a lot of drama - maybe we could win this without the ability, maybe with minimal loss of life or horrible loss of life, but I know if I use this, very good chance I've hit the "we win" button. This is a beautiful design space, to me. Changes that would make it extremely easy to remove people at will, or have no additional restrictions, or cause it to be weaker at the expense of lost restrictions all would move it out of that design space and make it far less exciting. But, again, to each their own.

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Kosmit
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Re: High Circle Preview: Sky Raider

Post by Kosmit » Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:30 am

I think it is like:

You are granted THE NUKE.

Live with it. And take responsibility.

I think I won't allow excluding any target's or maybe limit to some really rare stuff like ppl from your Group Pattern because when you hurt them with this... Bye bye Blood Peace and the Pattern ;)

Lys
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Re: High Circle Preview: Sky Raider

Post by Lys » Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:11 am

You know i would actually prefer if Stormcall's only exception was the members of your Group Pattern, since it's simple, straightforward, and fits with the settings metaphysics. For everyone else, Sky Raiders have Great Leap with which to jump away from them and right into the thick of the enemy.

Also The Undying is right, i did kind of make a mountain out of a molehill out of it. The original comment was more as a, "It's good but i don't like these two details" and then i started arguing about it and i probably should have let it go after the first post or two. That said, i do strongly dislike it when a power goes tantalizes you with a cool thing and then places a whole bunch of limits on it. Honestly i think i'm still traumatized over Exalted 2nd Edition Lunars, which was a splatbook were half the powers seemed awesome until you read the last line or two which nerfed them into mediocrity. That is not actually the case with Stormcall, it's pretty awesome as written, and my objection to the way the exceptions is handled is more about the lack of mechanical elegance. Though i do still think that the increasing cost screws up the balance, since it makes Stormcall stronger the less fights per day the Sky Raider engages in, which seems like the opposite of what the Sky Raider Discipline should encourage.

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The Undying
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Re: High Circle Preview: Sky Raider

Post by The Undying » Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:32 am

Kosmit wrote:Bye bye Blood Peace and the Pattern ;)
I think we're forking off into other-thread territory, but it's an interesting question how this (and other semi-related stuff) would interact with Blood Oaths that prevent KNOWINGLY inflicting harm on the other. If an Adept truly believes that harming the other is necessary and for the greater good, would that actually break the Oath? That opens a can of worms where an Adept under a Horror Mark may have been twisted into believing something that is blatantly not true, but still. Stormcall is one instance where an Adept may know they're about to physical harm one of their companions, thereby violating the Oath, but they may believe, potentially rightly, that without this action, they're all doomed. Perhaps a more simple example is the Nethermancer spell Aspect of the Cruel Surgeon - you HAVE to cause a wound in order to [potentially] help someone, which is definitely causing harm...

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Kosmit
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Re: High Circle Preview: Sky Raider

Post by Kosmit » Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:31 am

Blood oaths are tough because 2 GMs (one was the player to the other one before) I know came up with an example that "magic item and your teammate with Wind Catcher are falling down the slide. Which one you save? If you choose item your oath is broken because magic oath understood you didn't help your ally."

I argue with that saying that there is no point in Blood Oaths among Blood Oaths because you can't stop everyone desanting from an airship.

Also there are some concerns when you attack your team under influence of a spell, drug etc. If the oath is broken? It can be sweared under pressure or magical influence so violating it under influence should also be valid.

Maybe we could start new thread with some hints from Companion about Blood Magic?

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The Undying
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Re: High Circle Preview: Sky Raider

Post by The Undying » Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:32 pm

I think it's more of an academic question best left to individual GMs. There is just so much grey area, each group is going to do what they feel is best, and I think trying to explain why a person thinks/feels a Blood Oath should or should not be broken by letter could swing wildly with no convergence in discussion. Personally, I like the feel of Fae trickery where Blood Oaths can be used to create vastly out-of-balance contracts and to even require creatures to do things they would not otherwise do. In that vein, I like leaving this open-ended strictly for the purpose of drama. So many great story opportunities where someone had to make a hard decision, faced the Oath repercussions, and either quested for a way to make things right or became incredibly bitter because of the way society treated him after the "broken" Oath.

PiXeL01
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Re: High Circle Preview: Sky Raider

Post by PiXeL01 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:44 am

I was wondering what the Skyraiders Master Optional talents are since they are not listed on the page

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