Compute Hit Points

[Reciprocity]

Fairly straight forward. Or so I thought. 4th edition plz.

Currently a 5th Circle Weaponsmith with a toughness of 16. Weaponsmith has base durability of 5.

Book examples are straight forward until you add a group thread to durability then it seems to get a bit strange. I thought a +1 durability group thread adds one point to durability then recompute total hit points based on circle and the now durability of "6". Those points are of course added to toughness times 2 base.

I'm told no... it's a step add. 1 durability adds 5 hit points (due to base durability of 5 for weaponsmith), 2 durability adds 10 etc to a max of 25 hit points.

So even if I was circle 10 - a 1 point group durability only adds 5 hit points.

So I am probably wrong.

Can someone explain? Several examples would be nice.

Thanks

[etherial]

Can someone explain? Several examples would be nice.

You are correct. I have no idea how they came up with that doubling thing.

Without Group True Pattern
Spellcaster
Toughness: 10
Circle: 5
Base Durability Rating: 3

Unconsciousness Rating: ( Toughness * 2 ) + ( Durability * Circle ) = 35
Death Rating: Unconsciousness Rating + Toughness Step + Circle = 45

Utility
Toughness: 16
Circle: 5
Base Durability Rating: 5

Unconsciousness Rating: ( Toughness * 2 ) + ( Durability * Circle ) = 57
Death Rating: Unconsciousness Rating + Toughness Step + Circle = 69

Heavy
Toughness: 16
Circle: 5
Base Durability Rating: 7

Unconsciousness Rating: ( Toughness * 2 ) + ( Durability * Circle ) = 67
Death Rating: Unconsciousness Rating + Toughness Step + Circle = 79

With Group True Pattern
Spellcaster
Spellcaster Toughness: 10
Circle: 5
Thread Rank: 5
Effective Durability Rating: 3 + 5 = 8

Unconsciousness Rating: ( Toughness * 2 ) + ( Durability * Circle ) = 60
Death Rating: Unconsciousness Rating + Toughness Step + Circle = 70

Utility
Toughness: 16
Circle: 5
Thread Rank: 5
Effective Durability Rating: 5 + 5 = 10

Unconsciousness Rating: ( Toughness * 2 ) + ( Durability * Circle ) = 82
Death Rating: Unconsciousness Rating + Toughness Step + Circle = 94

Heavy
Heavy Toughness: 16
Circle: 5
Thread Rank: 5
Effective Durability Rating: 7 + 5 = 12

Unconsciousness Rating: ( Toughness * 2 ) + ( Durability * Circle ) = 92
Death Rating: Unconsciousness Rating + Toughness Step + Circle = 104

[Calamrin]

What they did is read durability as the jumps in classes.

3,5,7 etc.

so one durability point would move you to next level not a single point.

Thats how i read it very first time i looked at the rules, i know its not right from looking at the boards, but can see the logic jump.

[RazanMG]

Etherial your calculations with Group True Patterns are wrong.

"When Durability is improved through the use of thread magic (e.g. pattern items or thread items), the adept’s highest Circle is effectively increased by the bonus for determining their Durability. For example, Honeysuckle has a Band of the Elements, which gives her +1 Durability. Her highest Circle is in Warrior (Circle 7). This improves her to Circle 8 for the purposes of determining her Durability."

So:
With Group True Pattern
Spellcaster
Spellcaster Toughness: 10
Circle: 5 + 5 (Thread rank)
Thread Rank: 5
Durability value: 3 (THIS never changes, just like war )

Unconsciousness Rating: ( Toughness * 2 ) + ( Durability * Circle ) = 50 not 60
Death Rating: Unconsciousness Rating + Toughness Step + Circle = 65 not 70

and so on.

For me it was always easier to count Durability just like in First edition.
Circle counts as Rank, Threads add Rank, Durability value doesnt change only you gain more Ranks. As you add Circle to Death rating all Durability is like 3/4, 5/6, 7/8 (Uncon/Death Rating) times Circle (Rank).

Spellcaster Circle 5, Toughness 10 (Step is 5):
Uncon : (Toughness * 2) + (5 * 3) {Circle * Durability value} = 35
Death : (Toughness * 2) + Tou Step + (5 * 4) {Circle * Durability value} = 45

With 5 Ranks in Thread Durability:
Spellcaster Circle 5, Toughness 10 (Step is 5):
Uncon : (Toughness * 2) + (10 * 3) {effective Circle * Durability value} = 50
Death : (Toughness * 2) + Tou Step + (10 * 4) {effective Circle * Durability value} = 65

[etherial]

Etherial your calculations with Group True Patterns are wrong.

"When Durability is improved through the use of thread magic (e.g. pattern items or thread items), the adept’s highest Circle is effectively increased by the bonus for determining their Durability. For example, Honeysuckle has a Band of the Elements, which gives her +1 Durability. Her highest Circle is in Warrior (Circle 7). This improves her to Circle 8 for the purposes of determining her Durability."

I had originally included a lengthy explanation about how earlier editions of Earthdawn had GTP add to Durability Rank, creating the effect you describe, but I deleted it since I couldn't find any justification for that interpretation in the ED4 Players' Guide. I had not thought to check the FAQ since I thought this matter had been settled before in the direction I described.

You could do it as the FAQ says, but if you do, the differences between Spellcaster Uncon and Heavy Uncon become so pronounced that the characters are practically unable to function in the same party, so I recommend against it. Also, really weird things start to happen if a MultiDiscipline character ever gets their Disciplines to the same Circle.

[Mataxes]

The official intention (and I'm pretty sure it's in the FAQ) is for it to work like it did in prior editions; the character's Circle is effectively their "rank".

So if you use a thread to give +1 to Durability, it adds +Durability to both Death and Unconsciousness Ratings.

That something "weird" happens in a particular edge case with multi-Discipline characters... *shrug*. Nothing's perfect, but I honestly think if somebody is trying to game the system to that extent you likely have other issues to deal with. (Is it any weirder than somebody in ED1 who would start as a Warrior and then after they pick up the 9/7 Durability at Circle 2, becomes a Wizard so they can be a magician but get that sweet Death/Uncon bonus?)

If you want to handle it differently, feel free. I've not run the numbers to look at every possibility, but adding to the Durability value (that is, saying that a +1 thread turns your Durability 5 to Durability 6) doesn't do much at lower Circles, but is more valuable at higher ones, since it's effectively adding +Circle for each thread rank.

[etherial]

That something "weird" happens in a particular edge case with multi-Discipline characters... *shrug*. Nothing's perfect, but I honestly think if somebody is trying to game the system to that extent you likely have other issues to deal with. (Is it any weirder than somebody in ED1 who would start as a Warrior and then after they pick up the 9/7 Durability at Circle 2, becomes a Wizard so they can be a magician but get that sweet Death/Uncon bonus?)

Well, the weird thing that happens is when an Elementalist 5/Beastmaster 4 Circles as a Beastmaster and gains 24 hit points as 6 ranks of Durability switch from Elementalist to Beastmaster. Then they lose 17 hit points when they Circle again as an Elementalist as five ranks switch back.

But my bigger concern is actually the fact that most Heavies will find trading 3100 Legend and a GTP slot for 35 hit points a no brainer and very few Spellcasters will find trading 3100 Legend and a GTP slot for 15 hit points acceptable. So the characters go from 35 and 67, respectively, to 35 and 102. And you have to somehow balance for that.

[Calamrin]

You could do it as the FAQ says, but if you do, the differences between Spellcaster Uncon and Heavy Uncon become so pronounced that the characters are practically unable to function in the same party, so I recommend against it.

I like Etherials method much better for exactly that reason.

And for their last point in the post above.

[RazanMG]

Then you will have to change all creatures Hit Points because instead of:

15 circle + 5 ranks Durability
Spellcaster:
20 * 3 = plus 60 to Unc
20 * 4 = plus 80 to Death
Heavy:
20 * 7 = plus 140 to Unc
20 * 8 = plus 160 to Death

you get :
Spellcaster:
15 * 8 = plus 120 to Unc [60 points difference]
15 * 9 = plus 135 to Death [55 points difference]
Heavy:
15 * 12 = plus 180 to Unc [40 points difference]
15 * 13 = plus 195 to Death [35 points difference]

And thats a lot, now change all creatures stats to Balance it......hey its your time.

[Reciprocity]

Oh that's brilliant Mataxes. I was having a hard time wrapping my head around the group thread addition.

But when I think of it as adding 1 or up to 5 "steps of durability" to the uncon and death ratings it now makes sense.

Everyone was arguing math... it's a step thing to two particular stats.