Pattern Items and True Patterns?

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The Undying
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Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by The Undying » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:08 am

This gets into dangerous ground of simplification, but here's a different perspective on the process using different terms and without the flavor stuff.

Thread Items can be leveled up. Each level has a power (benefit the character gets) and a cost (that the character must pay). The cost has to parts: LP/experience, and a task the character must perform. Sometimes, the task is blank/empty and is effectively ignored. Other times, the task is not blank, and it specifies a question the character must answer and/or a specific action the do. If it's a question, the character must find out the answer by any means at their disposal. The task must be completed in full: all questions answered and all actions done to the content of the GM. When the task is completed, the character pay the other remaining LP/experience cost, thereby achieving the level and receiving the power. Leveling is linear - you must unlock Level 1 before unlocking Level 2; even if you have the answer for Level 2 but not Level 1, you can't pay the LP for both and only use the Level 2 power until you find the answer for Level 1.

Level = Rank
Task = Key Knowledge
Questions &/or Actions = Test Knowledge
Answers = Research Knowledge

MOST everything else is fluff and terminology. There are other system elements that must be obeyed, and the analogy of "leveling" kind breaks down because you're really leveling up he characters thread to the item, not the item itself. However, it's not clear that you're confused on the latter idea.

As to the questions about True Pattern and Pattern Items, really, ignore them. You're investigating people, places, and things to find the answer to the question - it just happens those are usually True Patterns related to the legend of the item and the legends it has become interwoven with. Personally, I've never used a Pattern Item to sort out the Key Knowledge of an item .:: I actually am not sure how that would work.

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Mataxes
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Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by Mataxes » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:54 pm

Before you get buried in an avalanche of help, let's back up here to a simple question.

What are you trying to do? What's your objective (beyond "understand this")?
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Jaracove
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Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by Jaracove » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:28 pm

Mataxes wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:54 pm
Before you get buried in an avalanche of help, let's back up here to a simple question.

What are you trying to do? What's your objective (beyond "understand this")?
Page 226: "The most common method of obtaining a True Pattern’s Key Knowledges is to obtain and study one or more of its Pattern Items"

Page 229: "By researching the history and activities of a True Pattern, it is possible to obtain its Research Knowledges."

A Key Knowledge represents the body of QUESTIONS that need to be researched and answered in order to unlock power over the True Pattern?

You must have a Pattern Item linked to the True Pattern so you can access the Key Knowledge?

Can you gain access to Key Knowledge that need answering without a Pattern Item linked to the True Pattern?

Once the Pattern Item has been researched and you know the questions that need answering, you use the Research Skill and plain old leg-work to find those answers?

Is there anything else?

Slimcreeper
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Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by Slimcreeper » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:06 pm

A thread item is its own pattern item, essentially, so you don't need a pattern item for a thread item.

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Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by Jaracove » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:38 pm

Slimcreeper wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:06 pm
A thread item is its own pattern item, essentially, so you don't need a pattern item for a thread item.
I don't believe I mentioned pattern items in relation to thread/magic items, only to true patterns (of people, places and such)

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Mataxes
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Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by Mataxes » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:24 pm

Okay. If I understand correctly, your confusion is with using pattern/thread magic on people and places, and not with traditional thread items? So I'm going to try and clear that up. I will start off with the specific questions from your most recent post.
Jaracove wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:28 pm
A Key Knowledge represents the body of QUESTIONS that need to be researched and answered in order to unlock power over the True Pattern?
At its most basic, yes.
You must have a Pattern Item linked to the True Pattern so you can access the Key Knowledge?
Yes (except see next question).
Can you gain access to Key Knowledge that need answering without a Pattern Item linked to the True Pattern?
Very rarely.

It is possible for a sufficiently skilled, motivated, and knowledgeable individual to make a decent educated guess about Key Knowledge (after study and research, and this usually points them to a pattern item). But they must still obtain and study the pattern item to do anything with that information.

Simply knowing (for example) the fortress is Named "Lochost's Glory" and its first commander was Wimzic the Bold, you can't tie a thread without the commander's logbook, the pattern item that acts as the connection to the fort's True Pattern. You also need to study the item to (a) make sure it is a pattern item, and (b) make sure the key knowledge it represents is what you've uncovered. (It might turn out Wimzic wasn't the first commander, for example, or the logbook doesn't represent the information that Wimzic was the first commander.)
Once the Pattern Item has been researched and you know the questions that need answering, you use the Research Skill and plain old leg-work to find those answers?
Basically, yes, though "research" in this case is a broad category, meaning "anything you might do to learn the necessary information."
Is there anything else?
The underlying theory and process for Named people and places is the same as for traditional thread items. The only difference is that for people and places, the pattern item is a separate object from the True pattern. This can make it more difficult to take advantage of.
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Mataxes
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Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by Mataxes » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:30 pm

Jaracove wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:38 pm
I don't believe I mentioned pattern items in relation to thread/magic items, only to true patterns (of people, places and such)
I kind of addressed this in my prior post, but it's the same thing.

Thread items have True Patterns, and require pattern items to learn about and take advantage of those True Patterns.

It's just the pattern item is the thing itself.

For example, there is a True Pattern for "Purifier". In order to learn about and use the magic of that True Pattern, you need the pattern item, which is the physical sword.
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Jaracove
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Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by Jaracove » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:21 pm

Ah right, ok

Thanks all, I need to let this percolate for a while, see how it goes

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Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by Jaracove » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:14 pm

Page 226: "The most common method of obtaining a True Pattern’s Key Knowledges is to obtain and study one or more of its Pattern Items"

Page 229: "By researching the history and activities of a True Pattern, it is possible to obtain its Research Knowledges."

Ok, I've been revisiting this question. The underlined is key to what I need to know. Could someone check the following is correct please?

True Pattern: Bob the Swordsman
True Pattern: Bob's sword "Giselle"
Pattern Item: Giselle's scabbard

Pattern items do not have True Patterns of their own

A Thread/Magic item is its own True Pattern

Test Knowledge = Questions
Research Knowledge = Answers
Key Knowledge = Questions and Answers

Page 229: "By researching the history and activities of a True Pattern, it is possible to obtain its Research Knowledges."

Do you need a Pattern Item to do this research? I ask because in that sentence seems to imply you do not. You certainly can use a Pattern Item (and it's the most common way), but is the above sentence implying you don't always need one to research a True Pattern?

This is what's throwing me, this is why I said in my first post that it seems like there are two ways of doing this (with a Pattern Item and without).

Finally, if you do not need a Pattern Item to research a True Pattern, why bother with Pattern Items at all, what added bonus do they give?

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etherial
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Re: Pattern Items and True Patterns?

Post by etherial » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:55 pm

Jaracove wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:14 pm
Page 229: "By researching the history and activities of a True Pattern, it is possible to obtain its Research Knowledges."

Do you need a Pattern Item to do this research? I ask because in that sentence seems to imply you do not. You certainly can use a Pattern Item (and it's the most common way), but is the above sentence implying you don't always need one to research a True Pattern?

This is what's throwing me, this is why I said in my first post that it seems like there are two ways of doing this (with a Pattern Item and without).

Finally, if you do not need a Pattern Item to research a True Pattern, why bother with Pattern Items at all, what added bonus do they give?
You do not need Excalibur in your hand to research Arthurian Legend. You won't be able to guarantee that you get the particular elements of the Legend to tie Threads to Excalibur unless you've performed Item History on it or happen across the journal of someone who has. For example, the Name of the Smith features prominently in most Thread Items and I certainly have never heard of the person who actually Forged Excalibur.

You do not need Pattern Items to research True Patterns. In fact, the best way to discover Pattern Items is by Researching the True Pattern. Pattern Items form a conduit for magical energy to flow between you and the True Pattern. If you tie to the Pattern Item, that forms a magical connection to the True Pattern that it's a piece of. That magic can help you locate the True Pattern, help you aid it in combat, help it survive combat, help you destroy it. Or in a sufficiently tragic story, all four.
Jaracove wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:14 pm
This is what's throwing me, this is why I said in my first post that it seems like there are two ways of doing this (with a Pattern Item and without).
Well, there are 2 completely different things going on here. In the example you listed, Bob and Giselle are both magical things in the world. Things that have their own Legends, their own stories, their own magic, their own power. The scabbard, OTOH, is just a piece of Bob's pattern. It's just a piece of his Legend, his story, and a way for another Namegiver to channel magical energy at Bob. They can use that energy to boost Bob or themselves any time they're in Bob's presence.

You can Tie to Giselle directly because Giselle's not alive. It's just a sword. You can't Tie to Bob directly because he's a Namegiver. You need some other way to access his True Pattern, and that's what Pattern Items are for.
Jaracove wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:14 pm
Finally, if you do not need a Pattern Item to research a True Pattern, why bother with Pattern Items at all, what added bonus do they give?
Take your pick (list found on ED4PG230):
• Any one Talent
• Physical Defense
• Mystic Defense
• Social Defense
• Wound Threshold
• Mystic Armor
• Durability Rating

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