Karma use with Tiger Spring and Air Dance

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Dougansf
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Karma use with Tiger Spring and Air Dance

Post by Dougansf » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:44 pm

Considering the Errata saying that same sources cannot allow extra karma use, can a Warrior with Tiger Spring and Air Dance burn 2 Karma on Initiative?

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The Undying
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Re: Karma use with Tiger Spring and Air Dance

Post by The Undying » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:21 pm

The errata provides an example that says you can:
However, a Seventh Circle Beastmaster attacking with Claw Shape and Down Strike could spend three Karma on the Damage test: one from Claw Shape, one from Down Strike, and one from their Fifth Circle Karma ability.
So, if you could somehow stack five unique Talents into a single test, then you could spend 5 Karma (one for each Talent) on the test.

Side Note: The "Disciplines count as a single source" feels a bit weird. It's always been that you couldn't re-apply the same Karma ability if you get it twice, just like you only get the highest Defense bonus. So, "the adept may spend a Karma Point on Recovery tests" is repeated, word-for-word, across multiple Disciplines, and it makes sense that that is the same bonus and shouldn't repeat. However, "Karma on Damage test because using self-crafted weapon" and "Karma on Damage test made in close range" aren't the same, and prohibiting their joint use feels like it diminishes things unnecessarily. Not a huge deal by any means, it just feels weird. "Because I'm a Warrior, I smash GOOD, and because I'm a Weaponsmith, I smash GOOD when using my own stuff, but being a Warrior/Weaponsmith doesn't make smash GREAT, I just still make smash GOOD."

Dougansf
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Re: Karma use with Tiger Spring and Air Dance

Post by Dougansf » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:49 pm

The Undying wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:21 pm

Side Note: The "Disciplines count as a single source" feels a bit weird. It's always been that you couldn't re-apply the same Karma ability if you get it twice, just like you only get the highest Defense bonus. So, "the adept may spend a Karma Point on Recovery tests" is repeated, word-for-word, across multiple Disciplines, and it makes sense that that is the same bonus and shouldn't repeat. However, "Karma on Damage test because using self-crafted weapon" and "Karma on Damage test made in close range" aren't the same, and prohibiting their joint use feels like it diminishes things unnecessarily. Not a huge deal by any means, it just feels weird. "Because I'm a Warrior, I smash GOOD, and because I'm a Weaponsmith, I smash GOOD when using my own stuff, but being a Warrior/Weaponsmith doesn't make smash GREAT, I just still make smash GOOD."
Thanks, I knew I should've checked the document again before posting.

I agree that it feels weird. At the same time it's in line with the Discipline defense bonuses not stacking.

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RazanMG
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Re: Karma use with Tiger Spring and Air Dance

Post by RazanMG » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:55 pm

I think:
Tiger Spring is not tested as it gives talent rank as bonus, so no you cant use Karma with it.
Air Dance (and some other) is tested as its Rank+Dex and Karma can be used on it.
Karma PG p.37

Damage talents combo work differently than Tiger Spring+Air Dance combo. If you need explanation, just ask.

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The Undying
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Re: Karma use with Tiger Spring and Air Dance

Post by The Undying » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:11 pm

RazanMG wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:55 pm
I think:
Tiger Spring is not tested as it gives talent rank as bonus, so no you cant use Karma with it.
Air Dance (and some other) is tested as its Rank+Dex and Karma can be used on it.
Karma PG p.37

Damage talents combo work differently than Tiger Spring+Air Dance combo. If you need explanation, just ask.
Sounds like clarification would be in order. Karma rules, as written, are when the Talent is used in the test. Giving a bonus to a test is, indeed, using the Talent in the test. You seem to be equating "used in the test" as "is the test," which is not as-stated.

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Mataxes
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Re: Karma use with Tiger Spring and Air Dance

Post by Mataxes » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:58 pm

You can spend Karma on Initiative if using Tiger Spring.

The reason it's done as a "bonus" (that is, it adds +Rank to Initiative Step) is so that it can be used in conjunction with some other Initiative talents (like Air Dance), which are usually "replacement" talents where only one would apply.
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RazanMG
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Re: Karma use with Tiger Spring and Air Dance

Post by RazanMG » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:36 pm

Thx Mataxes :)

ragbasti
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Re: Karma use with Tiger Spring and Air Dance

Post by ragbasti » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:01 pm

Mataxes wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:58 pm
You can spend Karma on Initiative if using Tiger Spring.
Just for future reference, to not create future confusion. We just found out in a Discord Discussion that this is not so.

"Talents that are always active, not rolled or do not enhance any tests, such as True Sight, do not benefit from the use of Karma." (P121, PG)
(there is a mistake in that sentence, which muddles up meaning, I have fixed it above according to what Panda wrote)

TLDR: Tiger Spring does not generate its own test, therefore no Karma

Sharkforce
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Re: Karma use with Tiger Spring and Air Dance

Post by Sharkforce » Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:49 pm

ragbasti wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:01 pm
Mataxes wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:58 pm
You can spend Karma on Initiative if using Tiger Spring.
Just for future reference, to not create future confusion. We just found out in a Discord Discussion that this is not so.

"Talents that are always active, not rolled or do not enhance any tests, such as True Sight, do not benefit from the use of Karma." (P121, PG)
(there is a mistake in that sentence, which muddles up meaning, I have fixed it above according to what Panda wrote)

TLDR: Tiger Spring does not generate its own test, therefore no Karma
could you clarify? by that quote, a talent doesn't need to generate its own test. it can enhance another test, and since initiative is a test:
Player's Guide, pg 372, Determine Initiative wrote:Each round, characters make an
Initiative test
and tiger spring is enhancing it, that doesn't seem to be a problem.

sigfriedmcwild
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Re: Karma use with Tiger Spring and Air Dance

Post by sigfriedmcwild » Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:15 pm

Word of Panda says Tiger Spring does not allow adding karma

The line on p121 in the book needs one small errata (the book says "Talents that are always active and not rolled..." it should be "Talents that are always active, not rolled...)

Note that the clauses in that statement are an OR so it reads like this:
You cannot spend karma if any of the following is true:
- the talent is always active
- the talent is not rolled
- the talent does not enhance a test

Tiger spring is not rolled, so clause 2 excludes it

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