Shield and Forge Armor, why not?

[The Undying]

I'll run a few scenarios.

First, for all scenarios, lets assume we have a Dagger with an existing +2 Forging being worked by a Weaponsmith with Rank 5 Forge Weapon, resulting in Step 9 for his test (which s/he may spend karma on). Because of the exist +2, the DN is 8 (6+2). Also, because of the Rank 5, the service cost is 250 silver (50x5).

First, in all situations, the Weaponsmith must work with the weapon for a week. This is all or nothing. Work with it for two days? No test. Work with it four days? No test. Get called away for something as important as an errand for Icewing? No test.

Situation 1: Test result is 7. Bad luck, that is zero successes. The weapon remains a +2, but it receives no additional bonuses.

Situation 2: Test result is 11. Pretty meh, given the Step. That is one success. Weapon goes from a +2 to a +3. Also, the ENTIRE +3 is now good for a year and a day.

Situation 3: Test result is 16. About average for the Step. That is two successes. Weapon goes from a +2 to a +4 (because 2 successes) Also, the ENTIRE +4 is now good for a year and a day.

Situation 4: Test result is 27. Incredible luck for the Step. That is four successes (almost five). Normally, weapon goes from a +2 to a +6 (because four successes). HOWEVER, the Weaponsmith only has Forge Weapon at Rank 5. That means the max bonus s/he can impart is +5. As a result, the bonus goes from +2 to +5 (one success is essentially wasted). Also, the ENTIRE +5 is now good for a year and a day.

In summary:
- The number of existing Forging bonuses determines the difficulty for the next Forge test.
- The number of successes on a Forge test determines how many ADDITIONAL Forge bonuses are added (bonus becomes "existing + successes).
- The Weaponsmith can never create a final Forge bonus higher than his/her Rank in the corresponding Talent. So, if the test outcome results in a bonus higher than Forge Rank, the final bonus is only equal to Forge Rank.

Lastly, Forging is ALMOST ALWAYS an incremental process. Not sure anyone can reasonable expect a thing to go from no bonus to 5+ with a single session. That creates both a money sink (more tests cost more) and time sink (more tests means less time with the weapon). In theory, those high bonuses become more painful and harder decisions. Got a +6 on your weapon already? Is it worth the 350 silver and one week attempting that +7? The problem with that theory is that the answer is almost always yes, implying that the players either have too much gold OR Forging is too inexpensive to create that pause of consideration. Restricting market access by GM fiat becomes the primary limiting opportunity.

Hope that helps.

[Calamrin]

Thats great Undying, and i get it.....what gets me mad is virtually nothing of that is covered in the rule book, so you end up with new players just being confused/not getting it as its just not explained.

[The Undying]

Thats great Undying, and i get it.....what gets me mad is virtually nothing of that is covered in the rule book, so you end up with new players just being confused/not getting it as its just not explained.

I have a vauge recollection of what you're saying. Not sure if it's because of writing style (not specific to 4ED) or some intricacies of the setting/system, but there do seem to be a few random things that cause confusion for new players. Sometimes it's the same stuff, sometimes it's different stuff, but the GMs are always left hunting around online (or through zines back in the day) to find clarification or suggestions. I've just been playing so long, I kind of forget that learning curve. For what it's worth, though, most/all RPGs have some element of that, even the venerable D&D 5e (great edition, but still has some spots that require unprinted clarification).

I could see how the text for Forge Weapon could be improved a few ways.

• Common nomenclature. The text refers to the +Damage once as "enhancement", once as "bonus", once as "Damage Step increase". Using a single term consistently would add clarity., even if it has to be defined once (e.g., "each success adds one bonus, and each bonus adds +1 Damage Step").
• Let rule text be rule text. The final block says the cost is "per attempt." Yeah, it reads more naturally, but it's really "per test."

Regardless, at the end of the day, the text is what it is. All we can really do at this point is seek guidance from developers and work together as a community to create clarification and advice. That's why I'm a big fan of thread owners editing their first post with the thread outcome - if someone stumbles across the thread, they get the problem AND solution up front rather than the problem and then reams of discussion with maybe a solution buried inside. That works for clear cut clarification stuff, but not opinion and play style stuff.

[Reciprocity]

Thank you for the scenarios Undying. They helped.

Just to explain my confusion a bit:

Same dagger but with a +4 Forge already on it. DN 10 (6+4). Going for a +5 Forge (limit of characters forge rank). The book seemed to imply (from my point of view) That you still needed to get 5 successes or the new forge would be whatever (as in how many successes you rolled) you rolled (in a single attempt).

Higher DN - going up just one level only needs 1 success. Dagger with NO forges on it going for 5 would require 5 successes. If you only get 4 then you only need 1 at the next attempt. But that would require another week of work. This sort of implies people are only going to "improve" forging in increments. And that time is the real limiting factor.

My GM has explained to me that he is not trying to limit me. He is trying to keep the damage disparity (as in gap) between casters and melee types down.

Other posts on the forums have covered peoples issues on that - even if they have yet to resolve them. Casters do seem to "not do very much damage" on average. Or at least not every round.

I have asked him to "limit" the player character another way then arbitrary limits. Time, requiring a magic forge, special materials or something. But I'm not sure he got my point. I do see his. I will recommend that player forges require some material cost (maybe half of the book cost at npc vendor).

Forging a matrix to do extra damage seems not in line with discipline....

Maybe Mataxes or the companion book has an answer or solution.

[Dyrmagnos]

Casters do seem to "not do very much damage" on average.

Casters are supports and should generally cast buffs or debuffs. Its only 1 good solution.

Another one - you have circle 5 elementalist with group pattern item at rank 5 waved to spellcasting and willforce.

Without group pattern item
Spellcasting 8 perception + 5 talent + 4 karma = 17
His dmg vs typical MD 10 character: 7 will + 5 talent + 4 karma + base dmg of the spell = 16 + base

Lightning Bolt
average would hit in 2.4 targets for 22 x 2.4 = 52.8 dmg

With 2 blood charms (desperate spell +6 to willforce and spellcasting) it would be 3.6 targets for 28 x 3.6 = 100.8 dmg

With group pattern item
Spellcasting 8 perception + 10 talent + item + 4 karma = 22
His dmg vs typical MD 10 character: 7 will + 10 talent + 4 karma + base dmg of the spell = 21 + base

Lightning Bolt
average would hit in 3.4 targets for 27 x 3.4 = 91.8 dmg

With 2 blood charms (desperate spell +6 to willforce and spellcasting) it would be 4.6 targets for 33 x 4.6 = 151.8 dmg

Quite impressive and it is in 1 round.
As Elementalist we possibly have 1 free success = additional target with earthstaff.

Same story we can do with:
wizard flame flash (but need to wave 2 threads for additional targets)
ilusionist phantom flame or phantom lightning
nethermancer every 2 rounds bone shatter at circle 6

Remember that most of adepts has no earth skin or steel thought but dodge and another improving physical def talents often.
You are comparing dmg to physical meele characters and its obvious that they would be better at dmg dealing but compare to archer and its not so obvious.

[Reciprocity]

Umm wow. Ok I'm a noob. Spell casters can rock.

Just take longer to "mature"?

My group is new to Earthdawn. Only GM isn't though he is new to 4E. We don't have a group pattern yet. Players have been focused on making circle and/or putting LP into the few thread items we have found.

Not making excuses.

So then - "What is this damage gap my GM is speaking of"?

There are also some/many posts here that mention it too... or is this just impressions that people have not thought through? Not understanding new mechanics?

[Dougansf]

Remember that most of adepts has no earth skin or steel thought but dodge and another improving physical def talents often.
You are comparing dmg to physical meele characters and its obvious that they would be better at dmg dealing but compare to archer and its not so obvious.

This, 100%. MD is often lower. Steel Thought is rare. MA is often much lower (if your spells go against MA).
If you take the range into account, these spells compare a little better to Thrown Weapons (Damage between 1 and 4, Range between 10 and 20 yards).

Another aspect to consider is what the spell gives for extra successes. Most of the 0 thread attack spells add duration to the debuff, not extra damage.

[Calamrin]

Umm wow. Ok I'm a noob. Spell casters can rock.

Just take longer to "mature"?

My group is new to Earthdawn. Only GM isn't though he is new to 4E. We don't have a group pattern yet. Players have been focused on making circle and/or putting LP into the few thread items we have found.

Not making excuses.

So then - "What is this damage gap my GM is speaking of"?

There are also some/many posts here that mention it too... or is this just impressions that people have not thought through? Not understanding new mechanics?

Im sure undying or someone else will soon explain better, but casters do get a big bump with willforce at sixth circle, and can do more with spells at 5th when they get enhanced matrix....so i reckon you saying they take longer to "mature" isnt too far off)

[Dougansf]

Im sure undying or someone else will soon explain better, but casters do get a big bump with willforce at sixth circle, and can do more with spells at 5th when they get enhanced matrix....so i reckon you saying they take longer to "mature" isnt too far off)

I'm reserving judgement until my Wizard PC gets to Willforce, and see how much of a difference it makes.

Though I suspect the Enhanced Matrix and higher circle spells will make a decent difference before then.

[The Undying]

We've veered off topic. I'm guilty of it often enough, I just hate to see it stray too much given that Mataxes said he'd post on-topic soon-ish. I'd hate for him to come to a meeting expecting to brief on the socio-political impacts of excessive overtime in modern industry only to see the convention center overrun with furries.

Anyways

I wrote a thread on this subject (with maths!) on magician damage output. You may find it helpful:
http://www.fasagames.com/forum/viewtopi ... orce#p1309

Note that since that topic was written, the Companion previews for Disciplines came out. That gives magicians Concise Casting at Circle 10, which helps (gives magicians a second attack, considerably improving the situation). I think most of it still stands though.

The points in brief:
- Close/Ranged combat nearly always has noticeably higher damage output compared to Spell combat
- Magicians have fewer ways to increase damage output (lack of a Forgable thing is one aspect) and less opportunity to use them (due to lower health ratings)
- Few spells converted extra successes to extra damage
- Some spells are super nasty but far more limited than Close/Ranged in when they can be used (the oft-touted Bone Pudding requires the Nethermancer to eat something messy which proponents of the spell never seem to apply, the oft-reference Lightning Bolt can require magician to be outside by some readings and always requires many close-ish opponents to shine)
- The primary way for a magician to increase damage/impact is extra threads, and this actually often lowers per-turn damage/impact because of turn(s) spent Threadweaving

As someone said (maybe Dyr?), magicians CAN do damage but are more support-oriented. Their high impact tends to come from non-direct or non-damage spells (e.g., Elementalists can chew through tightly packed enemies more effectively than Close/Ranged combat thanks to AoE damages spells). This has always been there to some extent, but it is hightened in 4ED with the increased bonus available with Forging for Close/Ranged combat. Arguably, magicians shine in their versatility, but this has been lowered in current 4ED due to the low (and overly combat focused) spell count and removal of the "spells don't cost LP" optional rule.