Shield Bash and Second Attack

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RazanMG
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Shield Bash and Second Attack

Post by RazanMG » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:32 am

In newest errata is written that you cannot use Second Weapon for Shield Bash.

So when you use Standard Action to Shield Bash does it mean you only can use it again (SB) for Second Attack (as it requires to use the same weapon)?

It was great combo SA/weapon, Second Weapon/Shield Bash, Second Attack/weapon.

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The Undying
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Re: Shield Bash and Second Attack

Post by The Undying » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:59 am

Since you were kind enough to start a question related to some of the jib-jab over on the errata entry, I figured I'd just add some questions to yours. :)
  1. Shield Bash is a Simple Action, so you don't Attack to Shield Bash, you Attack to Attack and use Shield Bash as a Damage replacement - correct? Some of this could be cleaned up by saying "you have to declare that you will Shield Bash before making the close combat Attack".
  2. Shield isn't a melee weapon, but you can't Melee Weapon without a melee weapon. So, if you Melee Weapon with a shield (probably because you were disarmed), does it count as an improvised melee weapon (which imparts a -2 to the Attack test), despite the weird wording in Shield Bash ("shield used as a weapon" but the Talent doesn't come into play until Damage Replacement)?
  3. It seems like the reason to prevent Second Weapon using Shield Bash is flavor - the fighter goes in with an attack from their main hand and then throws their weight into the shield instead. FOR ME, that seems like the only justification for disallowing Shield Bash on Second Weapon ... but if that's the case, shouldn't you also not be able to use the shield as a weapon for a Melee Weapon attack (as an improvised weapon) in order to Shield Bash?
  4. Are there any other prevented combinations? For example, Shield Bash just says "successful close combat Attack", so what about Swift Kick?
  5. Any thoughts on whether Attack bonuses from Thread Item weapons should benefit an Attack if the Attack ultimately uses Shield Bash (because Shield Bash 'uses the shield as [the] weapon')?
  6. Razan's question above (since I semi-hijacked his thread and don't want it to get lost): since Second Attack requires use of "the same weapon" and Shield Bash "uses the shield as a weapon" [for the attack], does that me you must use Shield Bash again for Second Attack if you used Shield Bash for your primary Standard Action Attack?
Personally, it seems like a number of these things could be cleared via errata so that (a) the shield is no longer referred to as "a weapon", and (b) use of Shield Bash must be declared before the close combat Attack on which it will be used. With these changes (especially the first), Razan's question is resolved - it's not the weapon, so you don't have to Shield Bash again. It could be cleaned up even further (although reduced in usefulness) by saying it can only be used for a Standard Action close combat Attack. Then, it's 100% clear when it can be used ... but it can be used a lot less frequently.

[Side note and apology to Razan: When I first read your post, my brain short-circuited to "Second Weapon" and I thought "ah, Razan picked up the mantle on the topic, I'll add to it." I didn't realize I'd hijacked him until I submitted mine. Sorry, bud.]

Lys
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Re: Shield Bash and Second Attack

Post by Lys » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:12 am

This is such a weird piece of errata. You can use your shield with Melee Weapons, Momentum Attack, Riposte, and Second Attack, so why not Second Weapon? What's more, why can you hit with your shield and then your spear, but not with your spear and then your shield? Especially since in my experience leading with the shield is by far the most common way to use Shield Bash, because it's more effective knock down your opponent first and then pierce them with your killstick while they're on the ground. So this forbids the less powerful less common use for Shield Bash, which hardly seems to accomplish anything.

And that's just the rules change itself; the explanation for it is even more bizarre. It says a shield is always held in the off-hand, so you can't use it with the talent for attacking with you off-hand weapon. What? That doesn't follow at all. If a shield is always considered to be off-hand, then you should be able to Shield Bash with Second Weapon, because that's the off-hand attack talent. If you can't use Shield Bash with Second Weapon, then the shield can't be always off-hand, since using it with Melee Weapons makes it your primary. The way the system is written, "always off-hand" and "can't use Second Weapon" are mutually exclusive terms.

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The Undying
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Re: Shield Bash and Second Attack

Post by The Undying » Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:03 am

@Lys

I think you're mixing up the question about Second Attack with the errata about Second Weapon (kind of like I did). The ONLY errata that exist in the document is that Shield Bash can't be used with Second Weapon. The original question in this thread is the whole Second Attack stuff. So, as of yet (unless I missed it), there is no answer/errata about how Shield Bash affects Second Attack.

As for the Second Weapon stuff, yeah, that still begs some clarification. Much of it comes down to wording, in my opinion. I feel like part of it is a design assumption that never made it to print. *MY* interpretation, which could be totally wrong, is that there's a design assumption saying that "you can't use a Shield (which is in your off-hand) at the same time you use an off-hand Weapon." Just think of the logistics - using your off-hand to swing a Weapon -WHILE AT THE SAME TIME- using your off-hand to deflect blows. Yeah, these are six Second rounds, but you're talking about combining a stabbing/sweeping/driving motion at the same time you're presenting your forearm statically in a way to deflect/absorb blows. Even if you want to allow that, imagine using the logistics of swinging a Weapon with your off-hand and -IN THE SAME MOTION- (because it's part of the attack) slamming someone with your Shield ... the physics don't work for me.

So, yeah, errata as is for the Second Weapon is weird. I can see the thought, or at least how it sits in my mind, but it'd be really valuable to have a few extra words explaining why more completely.

Again, though, I think a lot could be done by additional errata removing the "uses the shield as a weapon" from the Talent text. "Weapon" has a system meaning, so if that sentence exists for fluff value, it just ends up being distracting/confusing. If it's not a Weapon, it never affects Second Attack. If it's a Weapon, it confuses why it can't count as a Weapon for Second Weapon. Etc etc etc

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RazanMG
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Re: Shield Bash and Second Attack

Post by RazanMG » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:23 am

I think Second Weapon was meant to give additional attack but without shield defense bonuses. And its ok.

What I think should be changed is wording in Second Attack, simply to: The adept makes an additional close combat attack. Then you can punch, kick, use weapon in main or in offhand, or use Shield Bash. As first attack uses Standard Action it really doesn't matter what you use to hit with Second Attack.

Thanks to that change you can start the fight also with punch, kick, use weapon in main or in offhand, or use Shield Bash. As it changes mechanically nothing, but lets for more theatrical play.

Calamrin
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Re: Shield Bash and Second Attack

Post by Calamrin » Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:29 am

Is it not just saying?:

-Second weapon is an extra attack with a weapon in the off hand.

-you cant use Shield bash with the second weapon talent (as its not a weapon, and gives defensive bonuses, and the second weapon talent designed for dual wielding)

Basically saying sword and shield a more defensive crowd control method of fighting.

While dual wielding is a more offensive gung- ho style of fighting

But that you cant mix them both together and get get some hybrid of the two.

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The Undying
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Re: Shield Bash and Second Attack

Post by The Undying » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:07 am

That's a reading, and I don't think anyone is disagreeing that it's a possibility. I think the problem is just that that reading is a jump in logic that isn't in the rules.

It totally makes sense to say "the system is set up so you can wield one two-handed weapon, one one-handed weapon and one Shield, or two one-handed weapons." The problem is that that's not said anywhere. For some, that seems like a perfectly logical assumption. Others don't make that assumptions or draw that conclusion. Rope in that Shield Bash says that the Shield use used "as a weapon," and there's plenty of room for confusion.

By the by, for those monitoring the errata, the statement about "because the Shield is in the off-hand" has been removed (as of this entry, at least). Now it just says straight that they (Second Weapon + Shield Bash) cant be used together.

However, that still doesn't address Razan's original question here about Second Attack, nor the other questions I suggested.

Calamrin
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Re: Shield Bash and Second Attack

Post by Calamrin » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:09 am

Yep undying you right, my post was merely a stripped down version of how i read it....there had been a lot of long complicated replies. (if you include the posts in the errata)

Just a post of how i saw it in its most basic terms. :)

ChrisDDickey
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Re: Shield Bash and Second Attack

Post by ChrisDDickey » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:41 am

To answer the original question, yes, I would say if your first attack is a shield bash, your Second Attack must also be a shield bash.

I would think that before you roll your attack, you have to declare which weapon you are using (and for purposes of Shield Bash, a shield is a weapon you can attack with), and only count attack and damage bonuses for that weapon. Same as if you had a non-magical sword in one hand and a highly magical dagger in the other. You could attack with ether, but only the stat's on one or the other apply. If you did a Second Attack you must use the same weapon again.
The Undying wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:59 am
Shield isn't a melee weapon, but you can't Melee Weapon without a melee weapon. So, if you Melee Weapon with a shield (probably because you were disarmed), does it count as an improvised melee weapon (which imparts a -2 to the Attack test), despite the weird wording in Shield Bash ("shield used as a weapon" but the Talent doesn't come into play until Damage Replacement)?
I think you are really wandering down a rabbit hole here. When you have the Shield Bash talent, a shield is a melee weapon for you. You are not using shield bash only because you were disarmed, you are using it because you took the trouble to become trained to do so. A shield is not an improvised weapon for you, because you were trained in how to do a shield bash. Almost all of your later points only come about because of your insistence that the phrase "The adept may use his shield as a melee weapon" is "weird" and does not mean that the adept may use his shield as a melee weapon.

Now you could have a separate case where a person does not have the Shield Bash talent, and does get disarmed and wants to attack with his shield. The Shield Bash talent can not be used untrained. In this case he could make an improvised weapon attack with the shield, but that attack would have to be ether a normal attack or an attack to knock down, not Shield Bash's combined attack. Just to be clear, this is not a Shield Bash, this is an Melee attack with an improvised weapon that happens to be your shield and so does not use Shield Bash's special ability.
It seems like the reason to prevent Second Weapon using Shield Bash is flavor.
I am fairly sure that the reason to prevent Shield Bash to be used with 2nd weapon has absolutely nothing to do with flavor and everything to do with game balance. Somebody decided the combo was too overpowered and nerfed it.
Are there any other prevented combinations? For example, Shield Bash just says "successful close combat Attack", so what about Swift Kick?
Only if the fighter had a shield strapped to that foot. (Note: I would impose a movement penalty to any character who straps a shield to a foot).
Any thoughts on whether Attack bonuses from Thread Item weapons should benefit an Attack if the Attack ultimately uses Shield Bash (because Shield Bash 'uses the shield as [the] weapon')?
An attack or damage bonus attached to a weapon can only be used when the weapon is the item attacking. In the case of Shield Bash, the shield is the weapon, and assuming nobody designed a magic item named "The Shield of Bashing", shields never have attack or damage bonuses.
It totally makes sense to say "the system is set up so you can wield one two-handed weapon, one one-handed weapon and one Shield, or two one-handed weapons." The problem is that that's not said anywhere. For some, that seems like a perfectly logical assumption. Others don't make that assumptions or draw that conclusion. Rope in that Shield Bash says that the Shield use used "as a weapon," and there's plenty of room for confusion..
Except that it is explicitly said in the description of shields:
page 412 wrote: Many characters employ shields when engaged in combat, foregoing the use of both hands in order to give them additional protection. A character using a shield is restricted to using one-handed weapons only
I don't think anybody could seriously argue that a shield allows the use of two one-handed weapons, plus a shield. Especially since the description of a buckler says
This small shield straps to the character’s forearm. The character may fire a bow while wearing a buckler, but cannot use a melee or throwing weapon with the shielded hand.

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The Undying
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Re: Shield Bash and Second Attack

Post by The Undying » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:40 pm

No one has suggested use of a two-handed weapon with a shield, so I'm confident everyone is on the same page there.

But, much like I said in the errata thread, I would say you're over reading Shield Bash. The Talent is a Damage Replacement effect - it does not come in to play during the attack, Rules As Written, to the best of my reading. Saying that simply having Shield Bash allows one to use a shield as a normal weapon weapon is, for me, the same as saying that Magicians always get to skip weaving one thread for a spell if they have Enhanced Matrix. They don't - if a spell is in an EM, they get a free thread, and only in that case. Similarly, Shield Bash's effect is limited to when you Shield Bash, which occurs during the damage phase after a successful close combat attack, which if done with a shield SHOULD count as an improvised weapon as a shield is not listed as a weapon.

You are jumping to a conclusion that is not in the book (to the best of my reading). And that's okay, because this particular material isn't drafted well. That's why this thread exists - to try to sort out the meaning. If we can get a clear indicator from The Powers That Be, awesome. Otherwise, this likely falls into the nebulous realm of "read it how you want" (although, everything falls there at the end of the day, even if it's written crystal clear :D ).

As best I can tell, it seems you are making an assumption about how the Talent works, whereas I am trying to say there are multiple interpretations and am asking which is correct. To me, it seems you are saying that you Attack with the shield. In that case, you spend whatever Attack Talent is necessary, but you are effectively declaring that you will Shield Bash from the get go because the actually ATTACK is done with the Shield. The visual here would be like just back handing someone with the Shield, which is the Attack. I could see that, but I don't see how that works systematically (I can't think of any other Damage Replacements that require declaration at Attack, and Shield Bash does simply say "after a successful close combat attack," not "in which the Shield was used for the attack").

I am trying to say there are other interpretations. The image that consistently comes to my mind is pressing with your main weapon and using the opening to hammer someone with the Shield. You don't attack with the Shield, you attack with your main weapon. However, when you apply the Shield Bash, it essentially means you used that attack to create an opportunity where you can throw your weight behind the Shield to hit them.

There is no clear indication which is the intended concept here. That's why the questions exist. I'm just not presupposing an answer, other than applying the system to the best of my ability.

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