Shield Bash and Second Attack

[Lys]

The way i see it they wrote a perfectly functional Talent, but it was not the Talent they meant to write. They either forgot a line, or thought it was obvious you couldn't use it with Second Weapon when in fact the opposite is true. So they're changing the Talent they wrote into the Talent they meant. It's still a change rather than a clarification though, as there is no shadow of an indication that you can't Second Weapon and Shield Bash as it's currently written.

[ChrisDDickey]

So far I have restricted my comments to the rules as perceived, and not given my opinion on what the rules should say.

Mataxes has said that Shield Bash was made not to work with Second Weapon for play balance reasons and I see and accept that.

However I can see little reason why, in theory, it should not remain usable with Second Attack and most other additional attacks. If you make it so that it is unusable with additional attacks, then I see little reason why anybody who will get a 2nd attack would ever choose it as a Talent Option. I strongly suspect the real goal is they don't want warriors to overuse it, and are trying to find a justification for it other than "cause we said".

Shield Bash, in and of itself seems a nice option. It gives a good amount of damage (though probably several steps less than a well forged sword), and a good chance of achieving a knockdown of your foe. It seems like a good choice to frequently use when you only have one attack available to you.

However if you have a an second attack available to you, you can duplicate and improve the effects of a Shield Bash by making an attack to Knockdown, followed by a normal attack, Both of those attacks would have the advantage of your weapons forging, so would in general be superior attacks, so there is little point having the talent any more (I guess Shield Bash uses one less karma, but that is it). In any case, once you you have 2nd Attack, Shield Bash is probably no longer worth advancing as a Talent Option.

I went through the standard disciplines (Novice and Journeyman circles) that get Shield Bash or extra attacks as a Discipline or Option talent and this is what I see:

• Sky Raider: Shield Bash is a solid option for them for circles 1 through 4. However at 5th circle they pick up both the ability to add Karma to damage rolls made with melee weapons of a certain size, and the ability to pick up Second Weapon as a talent option. Shields, not having a weapon size, would not get the bonus karma die (but being a damage replacement, you can roll one karma anyway - but the power does not allow you to roll a 2nd karma) At that point the attraction of twin broadswords or twin troll swords will often become more attractive than a single Shield Bash to all but the most timid Sky Raider (and who ever heard of a timid Sky Raider). Before Shield Bash / Second Weapon combo got nerfed, that combo was a solid choice. One 1-handed weapon with karma spent on damage, plus one Shield Bash (with karma spent on damage), plus the benefits of a shield. But if you can't use Shield Bash with 2nd weapon, the choice between making one attack and using a shield, and wielding two 1-handed weapons and getting karma on the damage of both of them, unless the party has a spellcaster that casts buffs dependent upon the target having a shield, the balance will often swing towards the more aggressive option.
• Swordmaster: Does not get Shield Bash. Does get Second Weapon, Riposte, and Second Attack. Shield Bash, as presently constituted is not really useful for them to pick up as Versatility.
• Warrior: The warrior is probably the problem here. The Warrior is the only discipline that gets Second Attack natively at Journeyman levels. With Air Dance, Momentum Attack, Second Weapon, Swift Kick, and Second Attack, The Warrior is a mincing machine. As things stand Shield Bash seems to be compatible with all of these attacks except Second Weapon and Swift Kick. Nerfing it just for Second Attack still leaves it usable for the additional attacks granted by Air Dance and Momentum Attack. One of the things Mataxes mentioned as being under consideration was nerfing it for all attacks that don't use a standard action. This would of course make Second Attack unusable any round that Shield Bash was used, and would probably cause it to be dropped from the repertoire of High Circle Warriors for the same reasons as discussed above. A medium ground might simply be to errata it such that Shield Bash can only be used once per round. That would still allow it to be used with ether Air Dances or Momentum Attacks additional attack, but not both in the same round.
• A Weaponsmith can get Shield Bash as a novice Talent Option and has no additional attacks of any sort, so Shield Bash attacks would be a very solid choice for him EXCEPT that this is the one class that will always have unlimited and cheap access to well forged weapons, and shields may not be forged to bash more effectively. This is a class that might see Shield Bashes used routinely, but I don't see it being ruined if a human took 2nd Attack as a versatility and made two shield bashes.
• I will just toss in that a human Cavalryman who took Shield Bash as Versatility might be interesting, but really, a successful charge with a well forged lance knocks the target down often enough as to make a Shield Bash not worth the bother.

By the way, I googled "Shield Riposte" just to see if that was a thing, and it came up with hits. Has anybody tossed that into the can of worms yet?

[ChrisDDickey]

I have to agree with Lys here. I think they wrote a perfectly adequate talent description as it is. I don't think it needs a bunch of clarifications assuming they want it used as it is currently worded.

If they want to change how it is used they could add some simple statements like "this talent can be used with ..." or "this talent cannot be used with ...", or "this talent can only be used as ...".

[etherial]

Really we should just all switch to Madus. Every weapon is also a shield, allowing you to Shield Bash freely.

[Reciprocity]

Interesting discussion.

I never "ENVISIONED" a shield bash to be "hitting" with my sword and substituting the shield bash rank + SRT as the damage.

I always saw it as hitting someone with my shield, period. If it does damage great! If it knocks them down better! The actual order of sword or shield first did not really matter. So in a sense shield bash was a different form of second weapon. It had the advantage of an automatic knockdown test and the disadvantage that it (probably) did less damage. (not having a damage step or the ability to be forged).

Second weapon had the advantage of damage step and forge.

Second attack is really no different. Instead of getting a second attack with my sword - for what ever reason I choose to use my shield. Less possible damage for the above same reasons.

I don't see anything wrong or game breaking.

Using the shield bash first leaves the possibility of actually hitting a knocked down opponent... even better!

The shields biggest advantage is increased defense. So why not - during intentions phase, you just say if shield is used to bash or make an attack you lose the defense for that round.

Still makes two handed, sword and board and Florentine style combat choices as viable options. And you still can only do the talent once a round. Technically you could shield bash, attack with shield, then do second attack with same shield if you had all the talents... Only reason I would ever see for doing this was because you had just been disarmed of your sword.

[Calamrin]

Not posted on this thread and wont other than this little light hearted relief.

I need popcorn, and am taking bets on when the vein in Mataxes head pulses to the point where it becomes a full blown embolism )

Right im editing:

And have to ask this in all seriousness, we have a warrior whos read the PDF version ...which annoyingly worded different to the book version...and is convinced Shield Bash offers and an additional attack regardless....so gets a normal attack and a shield bash just as shield bash is an additional attack not involving second attack or second weapon....

Id appreciate a couple of responses so i can at least take a screen shot or direct him here!

[The Undying]

It can be said with 100% certainty that Shield Bash does not offer an extra attack. Mataxes notes earlier in the thread that an available Melee Attack must be used. I'd say it's also evident by the fact that it's Damage Replacement (which only alters the Damage phase of an Attack), but this Talent may (depending on errata) also alter the Attack phase of the Attack.

So, no love for the straight Warrior hoping to pull off five attacks as Journeyman. S/he will just have to get by with four SOME HOW.

[The Undying]

The shields biggest advantage is increased defense. So why not - during intentions phase, you just say if shield is used to bash or make an attack you lose the defense for that round.

That makes sense to me. Either treat it as a Combat Option (you're using the shield as defense or you're not) or as an equipment choice (if you are wearing a shield at the top of the round, you get the defense bonus but cannot attack with the offhand for the round).

The complication is that intention declaration in ED4 was reduced - you don't need to be very specific at all. No reason a little extra beef can't be added to handle problem areas though, esp if it's marked as a Combat Option.

[Kosmit]

There is already a talent that uses the same rank for attack and damage (Referring to what Mataxes wrote about Shield Bash not being attack and damage replacement at the same time).

Cutting Words!