Animal Training: What is and isn't one "Command". Also, what does it mean for a mount to be "Combat Trained".

[ChrisDDickey]

I find the Animal Training skill very confusing trying to determine what is "one Command" as opposed to "more than one Command" or "ability that is not a Command".
I am coming at this thinking about a Cavalryman, but I think most of the issues are identical for Beastmasters.

OK, so first off, a Cavalryman starts off play with a mount.

Cavalrymen begin the game with a mount ... The mount is trained for riding only; the Cavalryman needs to combat-train it (p. 395).

Page 395 says:

Trained mounts are the type usually sold and allow riders. Their main purpose is for travel, as combat will frequently spook them. Combat mounts are accustomed to the sounds of the battlefield, trained to ride into or straight at other creatures on the rider’s command, and may even attack them.

Players Guide page 430 says

Except where already noted, combat-trained mounts cost at least ten times the prices shown. Training can be accomplished with the Animal Bond (p. 125) and Animal Training (p.127) talents. Both talents are also available as skills

So Question #1 is, what is the actual advantage to having your mount combat trained? I would assume there is one, but the only reference I can find is that Page 396 says"

characters not familiar with their mounts must succeed at a Trick Riding test against the mount’s Social Defense to take their mounts into (but not away from) combat

So it seems to me (and please correct me if I am missing something) is that you can only ride your mount towards combat if ONE of the following is true: The mount is combat trained, you are "familiar" with your mount, or you succeed in a Trick Riding test. Assuming you have owned your mount for a while, I can't see any advantage to having it combat trained. True I have not gone carefully through the list of powers and spells specifically looking for one that will ruin the day of anybody not on a combat trained mount, but off the top of my head, I can't find anything except this.

[ChrisDDickey]

Animal Training:

The adept trains an animal to obey simple commands such as “scout ahead,” “smell that,” and “go home,” as well as the more usual “stop,” “heel,” “fetch,” and “kill.” An animal can be taught a maximum number of commands equal to the adept’s Animal Training rank.
Each command requires a separate successful use of Animal Training

Does being Combat Trained count as one of the "commands" an animal knows? Or is it just an ability that is unlocked without being counted as a specific trick or command? If a mount has more than one combat ability (such as bite, kick, gore, charge, etc) do all of these get unlocked with the zero or one command slots being used up? IE: the rider can pick exactly what the mount is going to do, "This round my mount and I are going to do a charge attack". "This round I am going to make a melee attack and my mount is going to kick". Etc. Even though these are different.

I have basically the exact same question for a cavalryman training a mount to be ridden.

Lets say a cavalryman comes across a wild animal that would make a good mount. Lets say it is in the book as saying "This animal makes a good mount for the following races ...". So he Animal Bonds with the animal, and the next day does it again. The Animal is now Friendly. The Cavalryman then starts training the animal to be a mount. Teaches it everything it needs to know, how to hold still, how to start, stop, run, turn, and leap upon command. Is all the commands that a typical mount knows considered one command, or zero? Or more than one?

So assuming the mount has not been combat trained yet, can the Adept still get it to make all of it's attacks with just basic riding training?

How about unusual abilities that a specific species might have that a horse can't do, such as Stealthy Stride? If the mount can do it, naturally, can the Adept riding it command it to use that ability, or is anything beyond basic riding considered a separate "command" that needs to be taught?

Now I am not at all certain about this, but my gut reaction is that teaching an animal to be a riding mount does not take up an "Animal Training" command slot, and gives access (while the mount is being ridden) to all a mounts natural abilities and attacks. Upgrading to "combat trained" also does not take up a command slot. The mount does not actually gain any new abilities that "riding" training did not give it, it just feels better about using them instead of running away.

Getting an animal to use any of it's natural abilities while the animal does not have a rider on its back, requires an Animal Training "command slot". So if you wish to be able to signal a command to "start moving with Stealthy Stride" to an animal not being ridden, you need to have trained it to with that specific command that counts as one of the few things you can train that animal to do. Each command comes with it's opposite "stop doing it" for free. Does this seem right and reasonable?

Thanks.

[ChrisDDickey]

So the rules state that the Animal Trainer must refresh it's commands. Nobody else can?

Lets say two friends are riding along, One is a Cavalryman, and the other is nether a Cavalryman nor a Beastmaster, and they find two wild animals that would make fine mounts.
The Cavalryman bonds one of them up to Loyal, and the other one up to Friends, and trains them both to be riding mounts and combat trained. He (somehow or another - I am not sure how since Animal Bond can not be used untrained) helps his friend to make the 2nd mount friendly towards him. Or maybe that never happens and the Cavalryman just trains the animal to respect his master. Anyway, the two friends and their mounts ride together happily for several months. Before leaving the Cavalryman spends a day renewing the 2nd mounts training. But then he leaves, never to see the 2nd mount again.
The other Adept continues to use the 2nd mount nearly every day, feeding it, taking care of it, etc. Even though the 2nd adept is using and practicing the mounts training frequently, I would guess the magic would go away after Rank x months and the 2nd mount would forget all of it's training? It's riding training and it's combat training? I suppose it would still be friendly to the 2nd adept, but untrained and possibly wild?

[Slimcreeper]

I would like to clarify this by saying I also think it is confusing.

[Dougansf]

I've been bashing my head against Mounted Combat for a little while too. Still haven't figured out all the intricacies.

Found some clarifications though.

The rider and his mount each have their own actions. If trained, the mount acts on the rider’s Initiative. Untrained mounts act on their own Initiative, which makes combat difficult at best, impossible at worst, as the mount moves and acts independently from the rider.

That's one big perk of having it trained. I presume this applies to combat training because otherwise you're just riding away on the mounts initiative.

Additionally, characters not familiar with their mounts must succeed at a Trick Riding test against the mount’s Social Defense to take their mounts into (but not away from) combat; Cavalrymen and Beastmasters are assumed to be familiar with their mounts at all times.

It looks like Cavalrymen and Beastmasters don't need anything extra to ride into battle.
Not quite sure how someone else becomes familiar with one though.

Combat-trained mounts may be directed by their rider to use their Standard action to make their own attacks, employing the Steps and abilities found in the creature’s description. Mounts not trained for combat may also make attacks, but these are not controlled by the rider, and the mount usually only attacks if threatened.

There are definitely perks to being combat trained, but no clear way of how to get there.

[Mataxes]

This is a very good question, and I don't have a ready answer. It's not something that has, to my knowledge (or research) been directly addressed in the game. And now that it's brought to my attention, kind of a big oversight.

My off-the-cuff ruling would be it takes just one "trick" for a mount to be combat trained, with an additional one required for each rank of "Willful" the creature might have. This would explain the (monetary) value of the more powerful combat mounts (griffins, thundra beasts, etc), above and beyond their rarity -- it's much harder to train them for combat.

We'll have a look at this and see if we can come up with a more official answer.

[Gressiar]

From personal experience playing a Cavalryman, I talked to my fellow players and my GM about it (as I had the same questions). What we decide is that it more or less came down to not teaching specific set of tricks but an overall combat training (basically freeing up the tricks for animal training). Meaning that the Cavalryman could get his mount combat ready with just time and the Animal Training talent but have those ranks available for training your mount some skills or improving their attacks.

I played a Troll Cavalryman riding a Granlain named Snowflake, and our enemies cowered in fear when we charged. The only problem is that Snowflake couldn't join us in Kaer diving.

[ChrisDDickey]

The rider and his mount each have their own actions. If trained, the mount acts on the rider’s Initiative. Untrained mounts act on their own Initiative, which makes combat difficult at best, impossible at worst, as the mount moves and acts independently from the rider.

That's one big perk of having it trained. I presume this applies to combat training because otherwise you're just riding away on the mounts initiative.

Additionally, characters not familiar with their mounts must succeed at a Trick Riding test against the mount’s Social Defense to take their mounts into (but not away from) combat; Cavalrymen and Beastmasters are assumed to be familiar with their mounts at all times.

It looks like Cavalrymen and Beastmasters don't need anything extra to ride into battle.
Not quite sure how someone else becomes familiar with one though.

Combat-trained mounts may be directed by their rider to use their Standard action to make their own attacks, employing the Steps and abilities found in the creature’s description. Mounts not trained for combat may also make attacks, but these are not controlled by the rider, and the mount usually only attacks if threatened.

There are definitely perks to being combat trained, but no clear way of how to get there.

As I see it, there are at least three levels of "Training".

• Untrained to be a riding mount.
• Trained to be a riding mount, but not combat trained.
• Trained to be a riding mount, and combat trained.

First Quote:
I am fairly sure that your first quote above refers to the mount being trained for riding. If the mount is not trained for riding, it acts on it's own initiative and the rider will find it almost impossible to coordinate. If it is trained for riding, it acts upon it's riders initiative. I don't think this refers to combat training.

Second Quote:
I would assume that merely riding a mount for a few weeks would be enough to become "familiar with the mount".

Third Quote:
Thanks, I missed that one, and that does fully answer one of my questions. Non-combat trained mounts may or may not take their standard action to make an attack at the GM's discretion. Combat trained mounts make the specific attacks their rider directs. This is the big perk of combat training your mount. I am not 100% certain it is all that important to get access to your typical ponies kick and trample attacks, but yes, you definitely want your thundra beast combat trained.

[ChrisDDickey]

I played a Troll Cavalryman riding a Granlain named Snowflake, and our enemies cowered in fear when we charged. The only problem is that Snowflake couldn't join us in Kaer diving.

I am going with a Dwarf Cavalryman and my hope is that a Traojin (3 feet high at the shoulder) with a dwarf sitting on it will be will be considered an indoor combo. I mean yes it is long but the total height should still be less than that of a human, much less a Troll. And as a bonus it's climbing and stealthy stride steps are way higher than mine.

[ChrisDDickey]

This is a very good question, and I don't have a ready answer. It's not something that has, to my knowledge (or research) been directly addressed in the game. And now that it's brought to my attention, kind of a big oversight.

My off-the-cuff ruling would be it takes just one "trick" for a mount to be combat trained, with an additional one required for each rank of "Willful" the creature might have. This would explain the (monetary) value of the more powerful combat mounts (griffins, thundra beasts, etc), above and beyond their rarity -- it's much harder to train them for combat.

We'll have a look at this and see if we can come up with a more official answer.

Willful already causes it to require extra successes on the training tests. Causing it to require extra training tests, each requiring extra successes seems to be squaring the penalty, and causing it to reduce the number of other "tricks" that can be taught seems to be cubing the penalty. Simply saying you need two or three successes for it to learn anything seems to me to adequately account for the mounts willfulness without piling it on.

If you are going to look into it and come up with an official answer, I would request that you think about several aspects. I think that the training of "Tricks" is more or less adequately covered in the book (though what one "Trick" can consist of is a little vague to me. "Scout ahead" seems to me to cover a whole lot more ground than "fetch").

One of the things to distinguish is the level of training being undertaken.

• Training a totally untrained animal to be a riding mount
• Training a trained riding mount to be combat trained

These two seem to me to be totally different things, and I wonder at the amount of time each takes. One Day each? Well, it is magic. Which of a mounts skills, abilities, and powers do each of these give the rider access to control? It has been answered above that a rider synchronizes his mounts initiative with riding training, and gains control over the mounts attacks with combat training, but what about a mount with Stealthy Stride, Battle Shout, or Tracking? My own guess is that Stealthy Stride, being a movement option becomes available to the rider with riding training. Battle Shout becomes controllable by by rider with combat training, and commanding the mount to use Tracking requires a separate trained "Command", but could easily envision disagreement. And of course the original question is still, Do ether or both of these training's reduce the number of other "Commands" and or "Tricks" a mount can learn?

Another issue to consider is does the mounts starting condition matter at all? It seems to me that this could range anywhere from a young fully domesticated animal raised in captivity (such as a horse), through wild horses, through never fully domesticated animals such as dyre and at the far end of the spectrum you might have a fully adult creature that is not domesticated and can't be trained. For example the description of the Griffin specifically says it can't be trained as a mount unless captured young. And I assume that any creature that is not suitable to be an Animal Companion is not trainable at all So this aspect is Animal Bonds domain, but does it matter to Animal Training as to whether a species is considered domesticated or not? It seems to matter with Griffins..

Also, if you buy a horse, it is assumed to already be trained as a riding mount. This training will never go away and does not reduce the number of "Tricks" you can teach your mount. If you capture and train your own wild horse?
If you buy a Thundra Beast and pay the full 4,000 price, it is already combat trained and this would not seem to reduce the number of "Tricks" that you can teach it. If you raise a Thundra Beast from a ... colt? Hatchling? Anyway, you have invested a lot of time and saved a huge pile of money. How many command slots have you used up training it to be a mount and a combat mount?
Does this change if you came across a fully grown wild Thundra Beast?
I guess that maybe the idea I am groping towards (and this is something I had not even thought of yesterday) is that maybe teaching animals young, the training is permanent and does not use up a training slot but teaching adults does and only lasts Rank Months without renewal? This has the added bonus of keeping reasonable limits on Cavalrymen and Beastmasters animal schools. Cheaper in the long run to train them while they are young instead of having to send your cut-rate bargin warhorse back to school every 3 months.