Animal Training: What is and isn't one "Command". Also, what does it mean for a mount to be "Combat Trained".

[Slimcreeper]

A non-combat trained mount has its own initiative and is controlled by the GM, right? So it moves on it's own and then you have to attack from where ever it winds up. I would say the rider can make Trick Riding (since there's not an Equestrian talent) test to direct the mount to where it wants it to move. Failing that, the mount would act on its instincts: most herd animals bolt, a few just go after whatever attacked them last.

I wouldn't have combat or riding training take up a trick - it doesn't now. I would say that yes, realistically raising it from young would make it easier to train because the young would have a lower social defense. I would say each attempt to train to ride would be 1 week plus 1 week per rank in Willful, and combat training would take 1 month plus 1 week per rank in Willful.

*and riding or combat training is permanent.

[ChrisDDickey]

Once again, the books are talking about three different things, and we are getting them confused: animals not trained as mounts, Mounts trained for Riding, and Combat Trained mounts.
I am fairly positive that it is only a non-rider trained mount that moves on it's own initiative.

Three Scenarios: (and what I think is correct for each of them).

(1) You jump upon the back of a random animal intelligence creature that is not actively hostile to you (or maybe it is just a pack mule that is not used to being ridden), and attempt to control it, A successful Trick Riding test (probably a new test every round) should convince it to move however you want. The target number might be higher if you want it to move towards combat. However it will move and act upon it's own initiative, and you will move upon your mounts initiative, but act upon your own initiative. You have no control over it's attacks or other actions. I would probably have you declare how you want it to move during the declare phase before initiative is rolled.

(2) You are upon a typical Riding Horse. It will spook easily, which may require a test of some sort to keep control if something loud or scary happens near it. Assuming you keep control, the mount will move where you want, except each round you want it to move closer to combat, you need to succeed in a trick riding test. However the riding trained mount will use your initiative, making it much easier to coordinate and control your combined actions. However you only control it's movements, you have no control over it's attacks.

(3) Absent any mind affecting magical effects such as dominate beast, your warhorse will always do what you want upon your initiative, you control it's movement, actions and attacks.

[ChrisDDickey]

I want to thank everybody for their opinions so far, and want to summarize the questions and the responses so far.

As I see it, a potential mount could have several potential starting conditions.

• A tame domestic animal, such as a typical horse.
• An untamed member of a domesticated species. Such as a wild horse.
• A tamed member of a non-domesticated species. Such as a lion that has been trained from birth not to attack it's handlers.
• An untamed member of a non-domesticated species. Such as a wild lion.

The potential levels of training are as following:

• Untamed and untrained.
• Tamed, but untrained.
• Tamed and trained for Riding only.
• Tamed and trained for Riding and Combat.

When looking in the books, I think it is very important to be clear what conditions and levels of training any particular passage is referring to.

By use of the Animal Bond and Animal Training talents or skills, animals can be tamed, trained for riding, and trained for combat. The rules as published are not explicit as to how this is done.

Taming a wild animal is basically teaching it not to attack it's handlers and other rules of good behavior. I assume this is done by mostly by Animal Bond, with assist from Animal Training. An animal that has been Bonded up to Friendly, should not attack the Adept. I would consider this to be partially tamed. I am not certain how much additional effort it takes to get them to not attack stable hands and grooms, but I would not consider an animal fully tamed until it did not do so.
My assumption is that "Taming" does not really need to be done for domesticated species born in captivity. They are tamed while being raised.

The value of animals that are often trained for riding that are not trained is 75% of the value of a trained mount. This could be used as a benchmark to say that raising an animal is 3 times more costly than training an animal for riding.
The value of animals that are usually not trained for combat but is, is 10 times the value of a mount that is trained for riding only. This could be used as a benchmark to say that combat training an animal is 10 times the effort of raising an animal and training it for riding. Thus training it for combat might be about 30 times harder than training it for riding.

A purchased animal is assumed to have been tamed and trained to it's normal level as a youth. Therefore most horses are bought tamed and trained for riding. Warhorses are bought tamed, trained for riding, and tamed for combat.

So the questions are:

• For a formerly wild animal, what amount of time and "Animal Training command slots" (ATCS) does it take to keep them from attacking the stable hands and grooms?
• For an animal that has never been trained for riding, how much time and ATCS does it take to train them for riding?
• For an animal that has been trained for riding, how much time and ATCS does it take to train them for combat?

And does it matter what the animals starting condition was (IE: domesticated or non, wild or born in captivity, or willful)?

Summarizing opinions given so far (as I understand them), most started out saying "I don't know, but my gut says..."

• Taming and/or Riding training takes one ATCS per rank in willful. Combat training takes another ATCS. One Vote
• Taming, Riding training, and combat training just take time, they do not take up ATCS. Two votes, plus my vote is 3 votes.

The only answer that suggested training times said "I would say each attempt to train to ride would be 1 week plus 1 week per rank in Willful, and combat training would take 1 month plus 1 week per rank in Willful." So assuming that riding and combat training don't take up an ATCS, these times sound reasonable to me. If they are going to take up ATCS then I would say that each should drop down to 1 day like ti says in the Animal Training talent.

comments and questions?

[Telarus]

This is the summary of the house-rule from the online "Westmarches-style" EArthdawn Campaign now being run out of Discord chat:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=396

"Training your animal yourself is simply a matter of time and attention. Domesticating a ride-trained animal is the same as teaching it a trick. Given the time to go over this again (a matter of days for Adepts) you can upgrade this single trick into Combat Trained. Combat Training supercedes Ride Training, but a mount must be Ride Trained to be Combat Trained. For mounts that have the Willful trait, you must spend additional trick slots to train them... Thus when you finally tackle a behemoth mount, you'll still only spend 3 tricks breaking the mount and teaching it to be Combat Trained. Horses take only 1 trick. Tigers take 2."

I really like this, as it "upgrades" a trick, thus using the limited resource of "trick slots" in a very cool way.

[Slimcreeper]

To be perfectly honest, I've never loved the 'command slot' mechanic. At rank one I can teach an animal to kill but not heel? Or I can teach it to heel but not kill? It seems pretty restrictive, to be honest.

I had something written up at some point for an earlier edition, and I can't find it now. Basically animal training 'commands slots were changed to 'jobs', broad command categories. I'm running on long-term memory, but there was Companion, Guard, Scout, Mount, Combat, Hunt and Forage, Perform ... maybe a couple more. Companion was the basic training package - obedience school. Guard would protect and area or person until told otherwise, on its own auspices. Scout would range out and report back dangers or search for substances and geographical features that the animal could reasonably search for. Mount is riding training. Combat is Combat Training. Hunt and Forage is for falcons, hunting dogs, fishing bears, truffle pigs etc - it doesn't consume the food but brings it back. Perform is cute pet tricks. It's more flexible, I think.

[The Undying]

The complication I'd see with a "professions" style approach is it significantly waters down Ranks in the Talent. Effectively, buying up the Rank has little value if you can achieve everything you want with 1 or 2 Ranks.

Realistically, there are two reasons to increase a Skill or Talent: increasing dice pool for tests, and obtaining Rank-bounded perks. For the former, a test really needs to either be time-sensitive (e.g., combat-oriented) or sufficiently high failure penalty to justify Rank increase. Without one of these, time is on the Adept's side: they will eventually pull off the exploding dice to obtain the necessary result.

The latter is really the design space that encourages Rank increase, especially when those two test-oriented conditions don't exist (or aren't sufficiently strong). There are plenty of examples for this mechanics - Spliced Weave (can only perform as many tests as Rank), Summon (can control up to Rank SR), and here with Animal Training (number of tricks). If we ignore the lofty goals of High Circle, most tables will be lucky to see the end of Journeyman. That still leaves enough room that Rank 7-8 is still A Thing, and it really deserves to stand out from Rank 2-3.

With a profession-style approach, I could see a handler easily getting everything they'd need out of an animal with a few Ranks. That leads to disappointment if you're forced to invest in the Discipline: the only thing you can buy with those higher Ranks are essentially novelty professions.

Meanwhile, the "trick" based approach may feel punitive but still makes higher Rank feel rewarding. I'd argue that someone with Rank 1-2 in animal handling should not be able to train a mount to fight it's nature and run headlong into danger, as well as to not flee when it takes damage. Rank 1-2 is toe-in from an aptitude perspective.

I could see lots of ways to address this, but all of them feel over mechanized compared to simple "an ability is a trick." Really, I'd just boil it down to GM guidance: what is a wide enough space to categorize one or more things as a single "trick," and does it feel like the Rank is sufficient to achieve the complexity for training that "trick." As to riding, remember: it may seem like a simple thing to you, as a rider, but that creature likely has to overcome a significant instinctual desire not to have something on it's back, let alone let something tell it where to go (herding instinct is different that mounted control).

Summarizing opinions given so far (as I understand them), most started out saying "I don't know, but my gut says..."

• Taming and/or Riding training takes one ATCS per rank in willful. Combat training takes another ATCS. One Vote
• Taming, Riding training, and combat training just take time, they do not take up ATCS. Two votes, plus my vote is 3 votes.

It's really not a vote thing. Besides, if you're keeping track, kinda important to note that that "one vote" you have noted is for Mataxes ...

Anyways, after all that rambling, my opinion is that riding/trick/combat training all feel like too big a thing for "tricks." I'd actually make them Rank-bound. Something like "a mounted can be trained for riding at Rank 2, plus one Rank for each level of Willfullness." Then, stagger them up: maybe 1, 3, 5 (don't want to make combat training TOO hard to achieve, otherwise combat trained mounts would be few and far between). This ends the whole "how big of a trick is this" as it's really just a gated check mark. It also gives definite value to Rank advancement, as well as further gating "hard" creatures.

[Lys]

How about there is no limit on things an animal can learn? Instead the difficulty is the animal's Social Defence, +1 for every trick it already knows. This means that you need either high ranks or lots of time in order to teach a mount a large number of tricks, and it accounts for Willful. You can treat Ride and Combat training as two separate tricks, or as upgrades of the same trick.