Steel Thought vs various things?

[Jason]

Issue came up tonight on steel thought vs creature abilities that target Mystic Defense (specifically Chilling touch). I ruled in the moment that it would, but said I would look into it, because with how it was worded, it sounded like it might not.

I did some digging and in EDC it spelled out such as talents, spells, and creature abilities.

I guess the question could be rephrased are there abilities that target Mystic Defense that are not considered magical?


thoughts?

[Mataxes]

Issue came up tonight on steel thought vs creature abilities that target Mystic Defense (specifically Chilling touch). I ruled in the moment that it would, but said I would look into it, because with how it was worded, it sounded like it might not.

I did some digging and in EDC it spelled out such as talents, spells, and creature abilities.

I guess the question could be rephrased are there abilities that target Mystic Defense that are not considered magical?


thoughts?

The intention is for Steel Thought to be Avoid Blow (or Resist Taunt), but for Mystic Defense. Whether an attack is "magical" or not isn't really part of the consideration.

[Jason]

Thanks. That is how I handled it in the moment, but when I read it, It was slightly confusing if that was the actual intention.

[Dougansf]

Does this also apply for effects that are not direct attacks, but must beat a targets Defense?

Anticipate Blow, Mystic Aim, Maneuver, Astral Sight?

[Mataxes]

Does this also apply for effects that are not direct attacks, but must beat a targets Defense?

Anticipate Blow, Mystic Aim, Maneuver, Astral Sight?

Maneuver, definitely not (it targets Physical Defense). Astral Sight, no.

The others... I'm going to have to think on that and get back to you.

I mean, can Avoid Blow be used to try and counteract Maneuver or Acrobatic Defense? Not traditionally, so I'm inclined to say the same kind of thing would hold for Steel Thought. But I need to consider whether this is one of those cases where just because something isn't usually done (because it's not particularly useful or effective, or is a royal pain when it comes to practical gameplay) doesn't mean it can't, if you get my meaning.

[Dougansf]

I mean, can Avoid Blow be used to try and counteract Maneuver or Acrobatic Defense? Not traditionally, so I'm inclined to say the same kind of thing would hold for Steel Thought. But I need to consider whether this is one of those cases where just because something isn't usually done (because it's not particularly useful or effective, or is a royal pain when it comes to practical gameplay) doesn't mean it can't, if you get my meaning.

Sorry, I meant any of the three defense skills for their respective defense rating.

I can see where certain Talents only affect yourself would not (Anticipate Blow), but Talents that affect the target could be defended (Mystic Aim).

But I'm pretty firmly in the KIS camp. I prefer that they're only used on attacks for damage or debilitating effects, not self-buffs.

[Mataxes]

But I'm pretty firmly in the KIS camp. I prefer that they're only used on attacks for damage or debilitating effects, not self-buffs.

That's the way I'm leaning, mainly for simplicity.

Otherwise you could run into the issue of: adept uses Mystic Aim on target, the target could conceivably get two opportunities to 'defend' -- Steel Thought to reduce the effectiveness of the Aim itself, and then Avoid Blow the actual shot.

The amount of (potential) rolling could get a bit ludicrous.

[Dougansf]

Exactly. Then you would need to consider some of the stranger things that monsters can do.

I recently ran some Jehuthra against my PC's, and enjoyed their ability to regain Karma by attacking the PC's SD. No actual effect to the target, but the Jehuthra sure enjoyed getting 1-2 karma back each round.

[The Undying]

@Jason

I think everybody has addressed your actual question. There are a couple other edge cases that you might be interested and which have been discussed on the forum previously, but I am currently lazy and can't make my fingers do a search. The primary edge condition that I'd suggest having worked out is how you want to handle AoE with duration. Whether it's Physical (in which case, Avoid Blow comes into play) or Mystic (and Steel Thought):

• does a creature resist an effect once, period, regardless of whether they enter, leave, and re-enter the AoE or continue to stay within the AoE
• if not, does a creature resist an effect once when entering the AoE but must resist again if they leave and re-enter
• otherwise, does a creature resist the effect every turn that they are in the AoE

I could be mistaken, but this isn't specifically addressed in the rules (which is fine). It's likely to come up, though, so likely just good to decide how you'd handle it.

[Mataxes]

It is addressed in the FAQ and Clarifications.

Steel Thought, Page 170
Clarification: If Steel Thought is used successfully, it only affects the character using the talent. Other targets of the avoided effect do not benefit from Steel Thought (unless they have it themselves and successfully use it). This talent cannot be used to negate any ongoing effects, unless a test against Mystic Defense is made.

Combined with the area effect clarifications for spellcasting:

Spellcasting Sequence, Page 256
Clarification: Unless otherwise noted in the spell description, spells cast against multiple targets (whether the spell does so normally, or is enhanced to do so through extra threads) determine their success (and number of successes) based on the highest Mystic Defense of all targets. Targets must be designated before the Spellcasting test is made.
Unless otherwise noted, if an area-of-effect spell has a sustained effect, any valid target that enters the area after the spell has been successfully cast is affected by the persistent effect, regardless of their Mystic Defense. Once cast, the spell effect is “real” and cannot be ignored.
Example: Malorren casts Blizzard Sphere (page 281) on a group of bandits. Four of them are in the initial area of effect. The highest Mystic Defense in the group is an 8. Malorren’s Spellcasting test must succeed against a DN 8 for the spell to be cast, and the number of successes (to determine any potential bonus duration) is measured against that DN. Malorren’s spellcasting roll is a 9, so the normal spell duration applies (his rank in the Spellcasting talent in rounds -- 5 for this example).
On round three, a Wizard who is part of the gang enters the area covered by the Blizzard Sphere’s sustained area of effect. Even though her Mystic Defense is a 10, she suffers the movement penalty and any potential damage from Malorren’s Effect test that round (modified by armor as normal). She might have been better off trying to use her Dispel Magic talent to remove the effect!

Lay out the way it is intended to work.