Animal Nature Circle 5
Threads: 1 Weaving: 9/14
Casting: TMD Range: 10 yards
Duration: 5+Rounds
Effect: Convinces target he or she has been transformed into an animal.
Illusion. The magician chooses an animal, such as a cow, catches the target’s eye and says “The cow says …” and the target says “Moooo”. Substitute the name of the animal and the appropriate animal sound according to what the magician chose. The spell only affects the perception of the target - it doesn't change the target's appearance. The target will be completely convinced that he or she has been changed into the animal. The exact effects will vary, but the target will not attempt anything the animal chosen could not do. This generally means no weapon or tool use and no speaking, reading or writing. The target will move around like the animal, crawling, hopping or slithering. The target may attack by biting, kicking or scratching, according to the animal. It will have a few other effects, determined by the type of animal. Some examples:
+2 strength and move speed (large herd animals, great cats)
+2 PD and -2 strength (small animals, such as rabbits and lizards)
+2 strength and climbing, -4 steps to any tool or weapon use (apes and monkeys)
+2 stealthy stride and -2 to speed (animals that depend on camouflage)
+2 to swim, immobile and harried on land (fish)
This doesn’t give the target any actual abilities the animal might have, such as special attacks or flight. The target will not take any action that is effectively self-injurious, such as stay underwater until he or she drowns or try to fly off a cliff.
Extra success: Increase the duration by +2 rounds per success
Extra Threads: Additional Target (+1), Increase the duration by +2 rounds
Illusionist spells
Re: Illusionist spells
Ok, so i will use fish aspect of this spell on enemy powerful spellcaster and he is just useless + has -2 to all defences and -2 to all actions + cant use spells/talents. Great!
Just SoS (Save or Suck - oh i forgot that here not everyone has chance to save) spell. Really broken when used in combat.
Put there sentence that can be used only on willing/friendly target.
Just SoS (Save or Suck - oh i forgot that here not everyone has chance to save) spell. Really broken when used in combat.
Put there sentence that can be used only on willing/friendly target.
Re: Illusionist spells
In this case, it would be a Willpower test to see if they could resist completing the Verbal Component. But yeah, one needs to be careful which buff-debuff spells one can cast on enemies, see also Combat Fury.Dyrmagnos wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:57 amOk, so i will use fish aspect of this spell on enemy powerful spellcaster and he is just useless + has -2 to all defences and -2 to all actions + cant use spells/talents. Great!
Just SoS (Save or Suck - oh i forgot that here not everyone has chance to save) spell. Really broken when used in combat.
Put there sentence that can be used only on willing/friendly target.
Re: Illusionist spells
Really, willpower test? Step 4-6 (because you are harried) vs effect test like 5+7+karma =16 is not defence. Only possibility to fight with this spell is Steel Thought - 50% chance of not beeing useless for entire fight. If you would wave 2 additional threads to additional targets it would be 3 totally crushed characters just by 1 spell. Think that you can use Desperate Spell (or two) for that 1 spell - 8 perception +5 spellcasting + 6 amulet + 4 karma = 23 step at circle 5 - try to avoid and try to resist 22 difficulty number willpower test.
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Slimcreeper
- Posts:1061
- Joined:Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:44 pm
Re: Illusionist spells
I'm torn between making it a much higher level and simplifying the effects (to just no speaking or tool use) and reducing the duration. Dyrmagnos is right, it's totally overpowered. I'm open to suggestions. I do want the whole classic hypnotist thing were the target acts like a chicken or whatever. Could make it melee range or simply not usable on targets engaged in combat?
Re: Illusionist spells
Well, one immediate thought that comes to mind is to take fish out. And anything else that doesn't have a commonly accepted sound to finish off that end of the spell with. If someone said to me, "And the fish says..." I would say, "Um? I have no idea. What does the fish say?" And Ylvis would have a new hit song on their hands.
"No speaking or tool use" renders most people pretty useless, though I suppose a lot of spells in Earthdawn don't actually require speech, so as long as they believe they've turned into a magical spellcasting cat, or whatever... I don't know. The effect you have is sort of a combination of Stop Right There (5th Circle) plus Twisted Tongues (7th Circle), plus... I don't know, I can't find anything that takes away that much.
There's probably a reason for that. The concept is neat, but even if you said it doesn't work in combat (which does seem reasonable - who's thinking about Old Mac Donald in the middle of a battle?), it's... vastly overpowered as written. Maybe model it more on the Aspect Of Nethermancy spells? So it grants the bonuses and penalties (with every option being a mixed bag) to certain Skills/Talents, but enforces a degree of behaving `like that animal'. Pretty much anything they do would be a Sensing Test -- so a high roll is going to break the spell, whether they wanted it or not.
But nothing that says, "OK, now all you can do is flop around." If they think they're a cat, they can still use their sword, they'll just think it's claws.
...I don't know. Honestly, I still don't think that works, and it's appropriating what is now very much Nethermancy's niche. But maybe a direction to start looking in?
"No speaking or tool use" renders most people pretty useless, though I suppose a lot of spells in Earthdawn don't actually require speech, so as long as they believe they've turned into a magical spellcasting cat, or whatever... I don't know. The effect you have is sort of a combination of Stop Right There (5th Circle) plus Twisted Tongues (7th Circle), plus... I don't know, I can't find anything that takes away that much.
There's probably a reason for that. The concept is neat, but even if you said it doesn't work in combat (which does seem reasonable - who's thinking about Old Mac Donald in the middle of a battle?), it's... vastly overpowered as written. Maybe model it more on the Aspect Of Nethermancy spells? So it grants the bonuses and penalties (with every option being a mixed bag) to certain Skills/Talents, but enforces a degree of behaving `like that animal'. Pretty much anything they do would be a Sensing Test -- so a high roll is going to break the spell, whether they wanted it or not.
But nothing that says, "OK, now all you can do is flop around." If they think they're a cat, they can still use their sword, they'll just think it's claws.
...I don't know. Honestly, I still don't think that works, and it's appropriating what is now very much Nethermancy's niche. But maybe a direction to start looking in?
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Slimcreeper
- Posts:1061
- Joined:Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:44 pm
Re: Illusionist spells
2nd draft: More workshopping welcome!
Animal Nature Circle 5
Threads: 1 Weaving: 9/14
Casting: TMD Range: 10 yards
Duration: 5+Rank Rounds
Effect: Convinces target he or she has been transformed into an animal.
Illusion. The magician chooses an animal, such as a cow, catches the target’s eye and says “The cow says …” and the target says “Moooo”. Substitute the name of the animal and the appropriate animal sound according to what the magician chose. The magician can choose any land animal. If the target doesn't know what the animal is, the spell has no effect. The spell only affects the perception of the target - it doesn't change the target's appearance. The target, however, will be completely convinced that he or she has been changed into the animal in question. Using this ability against an unwilling target requires an extra success. Using it against a target that is in combat also requires an extra success. Extra successes are cumulative; using it against an enemy in combat requires 2 extra successes. The character can only communicate verbally using the animal's noises. The character will not attempt anything that the animal wouldn't normally be able to do, such as pick up a sword or turn a doorknob. However, if the character already has a readied weapon, he or she can use it to attack. In this case, the character believes it to be his or her natural attack. The character may think he or she is pecking you to death, but you will see him or her striking with a sword, possibly while making pecking motions and clucking like a chicken. The affected character can still cast spells that don't require verbal components or actions that the animal wouldn't be able to perform.
If the spell caster weaves additional threads, he or she can choose one of the following penalties or bonuses to apply, based on the animal:
plus or minus 2 Physical Defense
plus or minus 2 Movement
plus or minus 2 Strength-based tests, including damage tests.
plus or minus 2 to Stealthy Stride.
plus or minus 2 to Climbing.
plus or minus 2 to swimming.
Unless the adept weaves an extra thread, there are no other bonuses or penalties. This doesn’t give the target any actual abilities the animal might have, such as special attacks or flight. The target will not take any action that is effectively self-injurious, such as stay underwater until he or she drowns or try to fly off a cliff.
Extra success: Increase the duration by +2 rounds per success
Extra Threads: Choose a bonus or penalty, based on the animal
Animal Nature Circle 5
Threads: 1 Weaving: 9/14
Casting: TMD Range: 10 yards
Duration: 5+Rank Rounds
Effect: Convinces target he or she has been transformed into an animal.
Illusion. The magician chooses an animal, such as a cow, catches the target’s eye and says “The cow says …” and the target says “Moooo”. Substitute the name of the animal and the appropriate animal sound according to what the magician chose. The magician can choose any land animal. If the target doesn't know what the animal is, the spell has no effect. The spell only affects the perception of the target - it doesn't change the target's appearance. The target, however, will be completely convinced that he or she has been changed into the animal in question. Using this ability against an unwilling target requires an extra success. Using it against a target that is in combat also requires an extra success. Extra successes are cumulative; using it against an enemy in combat requires 2 extra successes. The character can only communicate verbally using the animal's noises. The character will not attempt anything that the animal wouldn't normally be able to do, such as pick up a sword or turn a doorknob. However, if the character already has a readied weapon, he or she can use it to attack. In this case, the character believes it to be his or her natural attack. The character may think he or she is pecking you to death, but you will see him or her striking with a sword, possibly while making pecking motions and clucking like a chicken. The affected character can still cast spells that don't require verbal components or actions that the animal wouldn't be able to perform.
If the spell caster weaves additional threads, he or she can choose one of the following penalties or bonuses to apply, based on the animal:
plus or minus 2 Physical Defense
plus or minus 2 Movement
plus or minus 2 Strength-based tests, including damage tests.
plus or minus 2 to Stealthy Stride.
plus or minus 2 to Climbing.
plus or minus 2 to swimming.
Unless the adept weaves an extra thread, there are no other bonuses or penalties. This doesn’t give the target any actual abilities the animal might have, such as special attacks or flight. The target will not take any action that is effectively self-injurious, such as stay underwater until he or she drowns or try to fly off a cliff.
Extra success: Increase the duration by +2 rounds per success
Extra Threads: Choose a bonus or penalty, based on the animal
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The Undying
- Posts:696
- Joined:Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:25 pm
Re: Illusionist spells
My thoughts, for what they are worth:
- Hard to see this spell as an illusion. Basically, all other spells with illusions in them have elements of perception and things that can be tested/sensed. Meanwhile, when you look at all the other Illusionist spells that compel or control, they are not illusions.
- There's a lot going on with the spell, especially for being a Circle 5 spell. Closest I can compare to, in scope of effects, are the Elementalists mantles. However, each of those are a series of boons with a critical drawback that could result in backlash. This spell is nothing but win for the caster, with no drawbacks.
- When you consider the level of impact this can have in the game, one base thread feels too low to me. Much of the conversation has focused on how this could affect combat, but this spell could also have devastating effects non-combat.
- People have noted the "Save or Suck" problem (love the term, btw). Again, look back at most of the other compel/control spells, they have a consistent "target gets to make a Willpower test against X," either per turn or per instance of being affected. I'd say a spell like this almost requires a per-round chance to break free, even if it isn't particularly likely.
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Slimcreeper
- Posts:1061
- Joined:Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:44 pm
Re: Illusionist spells
Alright, last try before I retire this concept ...
Animal Nature Circle 7
Threads: 1 Weaving: 9/14
Casting: TMD Range: 10 yards
Duration: 5+Rounds
Effect: Convinces target he or she has been transformed into an animal.
Illusion. This spell enhances and extends the power of the Hypnotize talent. This is a delicate and subtle spell, in technique if not effect. It only works on subjects that the magician has under the effect of the suggestion stage of the Hypnotism talent. The magician chooses an animal, such as a cow, catches the target’s eye and says “The cow says …” and the target says “Moooo”. Substitute the name of the animal and the appropriate animal sound according to what the magician chose. The spell only affects the perception of the target - it doesn't change the target's appearance. The target will be completely convinced that he or she has been changed into the animal. The exact effects will vary, but the target will not attempt anything the animal chosen could not do. This generally means no weapon or tool use and no communication, except through animal noises. The target will move around like the animal, crawling, hopping or slithering. The effect ends if the character takes damage.
If the spell caster weaves additional threads, he or she can choose one of the following penalties or bonuses to apply, based on the animal:
plus or minus 2 Movement
plus or minus 2 Strength-based tests, including damage tests.
plus or minus 2 to Stealthy Stride.
plus or minus 2 to Climbing.
plus or minus 2 to Swimming.
plus or minus 2 to attempts to quit smoking or lose weight
Unless the adept weaves an extra thread, there are no other bonuses or penalties. This doesn’t give the target any actual abilities the animal might have, such as special attacks or flight. The target will not take any action that is effectively self-injurious, such as stay underwater until he or she drowns or try to fly off a cliff.
Extra success: Increase the duration by +2 rounds per success
Extra Threads: Choose a bonus or penalty, based on the animal
This doesn’t give the target any actual abilities the animal might have, such as special attacks or flight. The target will not take any action that is effectively self-injurious, such as stay underwater until he or she drowns or try to fly off a cliff.
Extra success: Increase the duration by +2 rounds per success
Extra Threads: Add an additional penalty or bonus.
Animal Nature Circle 7
Threads: 1 Weaving: 9/14
Casting: TMD Range: 10 yards
Duration: 5+Rounds
Effect: Convinces target he or she has been transformed into an animal.
Illusion. This spell enhances and extends the power of the Hypnotize talent. This is a delicate and subtle spell, in technique if not effect. It only works on subjects that the magician has under the effect of the suggestion stage of the Hypnotism talent. The magician chooses an animal, such as a cow, catches the target’s eye and says “The cow says …” and the target says “Moooo”. Substitute the name of the animal and the appropriate animal sound according to what the magician chose. The spell only affects the perception of the target - it doesn't change the target's appearance. The target will be completely convinced that he or she has been changed into the animal. The exact effects will vary, but the target will not attempt anything the animal chosen could not do. This generally means no weapon or tool use and no communication, except through animal noises. The target will move around like the animal, crawling, hopping or slithering. The effect ends if the character takes damage.
If the spell caster weaves additional threads, he or she can choose one of the following penalties or bonuses to apply, based on the animal:
plus or minus 2 Movement
plus or minus 2 Strength-based tests, including damage tests.
plus or minus 2 to Stealthy Stride.
plus or minus 2 to Climbing.
plus or minus 2 to Swimming.
plus or minus 2 to attempts to quit smoking or lose weight
Unless the adept weaves an extra thread, there are no other bonuses or penalties. This doesn’t give the target any actual abilities the animal might have, such as special attacks or flight. The target will not take any action that is effectively self-injurious, such as stay underwater until he or she drowns or try to fly off a cliff.
Extra success: Increase the duration by +2 rounds per success
Extra Threads: Choose a bonus or penalty, based on the animal
This doesn’t give the target any actual abilities the animal might have, such as special attacks or flight. The target will not take any action that is effectively self-injurious, such as stay underwater until he or she drowns or try to fly off a cliff.
Extra success: Increase the duration by +2 rounds per success
Extra Threads: Add an additional penalty or bonus.
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The Undying
- Posts:696
- Joined:Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:25 pm
Re: Illusionist spells
At the end of the day, slim, it's really up to you - if this is something you want to do, just go for it. If you're the GM, well, you'll see the consequences soon enough and accommodate accordingly. If you're the player, it's really the GM that's going to have the call. Don't retire it based on community feedback ~ whether people agree or disagree with it on any given point, power, process, whatever, if you want this in there, you should do it and worse case be prepared to pull back some/all if there's a problem.
The only feedback I'd really give on your last version is I feel like you might have overly sacrificed in an attempt to create by community. The spell really doesn't feel at all like the original, and with the gate behind Hypnotize, it creates a bit of a conflict. So, I'd really say go back to your roots ~ what are you really trying to achieve with this? You said you like "the idea," but other than the spell mechanics, the idea hasn't been described. Is it meant to be a parlor trick? If so, that's a pretty rich area that does NOT require shifting bonuses/penalties or some of the more powerful stuff. Is it meant to be an Illusionist's attempt at the High-Circle Beastmaster Discipline feature ability? If so, the Circle of that ability should give you a pretty good idea of where to start (which is to say, not 5 or 7
). Is it meant to be used in combat? If no, there ARE spells out there that make them essentially unusable combat, adopt a mechanism like that to avoid any "this is to strong if it creeps into combat" stuff, and if yes, just critically consider how it could impact. Lastly, and honestly I cannot stress this feeling enough since people don't seem to focus enough on it: when you add something to the game, remember that NPCs get access to it as well (which will require you to retcon any applicable NPCs), so how will a PC feel when this gets slapped on them? If the answer is "pissed" (no one likes getting hit with debuffs, but some debuffs can be maddening while others are frustrating), then that's likely a good indication there's a problem.
Hope that helps.
The only feedback I'd really give on your last version is I feel like you might have overly sacrificed in an attempt to create by community. The spell really doesn't feel at all like the original, and with the gate behind Hypnotize, it creates a bit of a conflict. So, I'd really say go back to your roots ~ what are you really trying to achieve with this? You said you like "the idea," but other than the spell mechanics, the idea hasn't been described. Is it meant to be a parlor trick? If so, that's a pretty rich area that does NOT require shifting bonuses/penalties or some of the more powerful stuff. Is it meant to be an Illusionist's attempt at the High-Circle Beastmaster Discipline feature ability? If so, the Circle of that ability should give you a pretty good idea of where to start (which is to say, not 5 or 7
). Is it meant to be used in combat? If no, there ARE spells out there that make them essentially unusable combat, adopt a mechanism like that to avoid any "this is to strong if it creeps into combat" stuff, and if yes, just critically consider how it could impact. Lastly, and honestly I cannot stress this feeling enough since people don't seem to focus enough on it: when you add something to the game, remember that NPCs get access to it as well (which will require you to retcon any applicable NPCs), so how will a PC feel when this gets slapped on them? If the answer is "pissed" (no one likes getting hit with debuffs, but some debuffs can be maddening while others are frustrating), then that's likely a good indication there's a problem.Hope that helps.