Key Knowledges

[Jaracove]

Ok just to clarify here...

A true pattern is the bigger picture and a pattern item allows you to see some of the bigger picture.

A thread item is a magic item with its own true pattern; a thread/magic item doesn't have a pattern item associated with it but does have a pattern knowledge, and pattern items have no true patterns of their own.

Weave threads directly to thread/magic items to use their power, weave threads to pattern items to gain insight/power to a true pattern the pattern item is associated with. All named people, places and item have true patterns.

Use Item History to find information on a thread/magic item and pattern items and use Research to find information on a true pattern.

I can also use Item History to find information about a true pattern?

If I can use Research to uncover the pattern knowledge of a true pattern why do I need to bother obtaining the pattern item? This seems like an unnecessary step when I can go straight to the true pattern via Research.

Mataxes: "You need the pattern item to make the connection, and you need to have it on you in order to take advantage of the connection."

Why do I need a pattern item to make a connection when I can just use Research to gain the same information?

[Mataxes]

Ok just to clarify here...

A true pattern is the bigger picture and a pattern item allows you to see some of the bigger picture.

Basically, yes.

A thread item is a magic item with its own true pattern; a thread/magic item doesn't have a pattern item associated with it but does have a pattern knowledge, and pattern items have no true patterns of their own.

Yes to the first part. Not quite to the second -- the thread item serves as its own pattern item*. Yes to the third.

* This is mildly brain warping, so don't get too hung up on it. Just accept that In order for thread magic to work, this must be the case.

Weave threads directly to thread/magic items to use their power, weave threads to pattern items to gain insight/power to a true pattern the pattern item is associated with. All named people, places and item have true patterns.

Yes.

Use Item History to find information on a thread/magic item and pattern items and use Research to find information on a true pattern.

Yes. (Though remember there are other ways to learn the required info aside from making a Research test -- you can go on an adventure to discover the needed answer, for example.)

I can also use Item History to find information about a true pattern?

Yes. But it's not also, that's what you're doing. You're learning a detail about a Named person, place, or thing that reflects how or why that person/place/thing is magically significant.

If I can use Research to uncover the pattern knowledge of a true pattern why do I need to bother obtaining the pattern item? This seems like an unnecessary step when I can go straight to the true pattern via Research.

Because you need to study the pattern to know what question to ask in the first place.

(It is possible to solely use research to learn this information, but it is much more involved and less reliable. Basically, you study a lot of information about the target and form a hypothesis about the magically important information. Without using magic -- Item History -- to highlight the magical significance, you're making a guess. Educated, perhaps, but still a guess, and you might be wrong.)

Mataxes: "You need the pattern item to make the connection, and you need to have it on you in order to take advantage of the connection."

Why do I need a pattern item to make a connection when I can just use Research to gain the same information?

Because even with the knowledge, you need something to attach the thread to. Just knowing that, for example, becoming leader of the Order of Night was a magically significant event in his life, that doesn't do anything on its own. You need the object that represents that significance -- the ceremonial dagger used in the ritual. Without the item that represents that bit of information (information contained in his True Pattern), your knowledge is worthless, as there's nothing to which you can attach your thread.

[Jaracove]

Use Item History to find information on a thread/magic item and pattern items and use Research to find information on a true pattern.

Yes. (Though remember there are other ways to learn the required info aside from making a Research test -- you can go on an adventure to discover the needed answer, for example.)

This is what the rules say about Research on page 163: "The adept finds information through study and investigation, including library research and following up on rumors and legends"

But going on an adventure and telling the GM (during play) "I am going to a library and I am going to pour over the old tomes and then I'm going to spend a few hours talking to the locals about legends and rumours", is absolutely identical in theory, to rolling Research. Aside from a dice roll (Research), there is no difference.

If I can use Research to uncover the pattern knowledge of a true pattern why do I need to bother obtaining the pattern item? This seems like an unnecessary step when I can go straight to the true pattern via Research.

Because you need to study the pattern to know what question to ask in the first place.

But the rules state I can just use Research, to which you agree, but...

(It is possible to solely use research to learn this information, but it is much more involved and less reliable. Basically, you study a lot of information about the target and form a hypothesis about the magically important information. Without using magic -- Item History -- to highlight the magical significance, you're making a guess. Educated, perhaps, but still a guess, and you might be wrong.)

So Research offers no actual magical secrets that are required to unlock the magical power?

Mataxes: "You need the pattern item to make the connection, and you need to have it on you in order to take advantage of the connection."

Ok, and this is only when trying to glean the info on a True Pattern?

[Mataxes]

This is what the rules say about Research on page 163: "The adept finds information through study and investigation, including library research and following up on rumors and legends"

But going on an adventure and telling the GM (during play) "I am going to a library and I am going to pour over the old tomes and then I'm going to spend a few hours talking to the locals about legends and rumours", is absolutely identical in theory, to rolling Research. Aside from a dice roll (Research), there is no difference.

Right. But sometimes your library work doesn't give you the answer, but points you to where the answer can be found.

For example: You find out you need to learn the fate of Sumgai, the last wielder of the sword. You do some research in the library and find a legend that indicates he headed off to Kaer Miscellany. In order to find the answer to the question, you need to travel to the kaer (overcoming challenges on the way or at the kaer itself), and find a memorial to Sumgai, indicating he fell in combat defending the kaer against a swarm of jehuthra as they were finishing the ritual to seal the entrance.

The information was indirectly learned as a result of the Research test. Reducing the process of learning secrets about a magic item to a couple of die rolls can deprive you of the rich story potential provided by thread items in Earthdawn. (Take a look at the adventure Blades for an example.)

See also: Deeds. Your research might indicate what you need to do, but you still need to go and do it, which a Research test can't resolve.

So Research offers no actual magical secrets that are required to unlock the magical power?

Correct.

Mataxes: "You need the pattern item to make the connection, and you need to have it on you in order to take advantage of the connection."

Ok, and this is only when trying to glean the info on a True Pattern?

Not just when trying to learn information, but also when you want to take advantage of that information and gain the bonuses from weaving your thread. If you have a Melee Weapon bonus from a thread woven to a sword, you need to wield that sword in order to get the bonus. You must wear the magic necklace to get its benefits.

In the same way, if you have the ceremonial dagger from the leader of the Order of Night, you must have it with you in order to gain the bonus your woven thread provides.

[Jaracove]

Thank you Mataxes - I assure you the penny is dropping

[Jaracove]

So there's the Item History roll, the Research roll, and good old fashioned leg work?

[Mataxes]

Thank you Mataxes - I assure you the penny is dropping

Happy to help.

So there's the Item History roll, the Research roll, and good old fashioned leg work?

At the most basic level, yes.

(Though I would say "and/or good old fashioned legwork" because 'research' can be a Research skill/talent test, or any other method of learning the required information. Generally speaking, that learning should require some kind of effort.)

[Jaracove]

Still a little unsure about the following:

A single pattern item holds a single key knowledge concerning its true pattern

What if the true pattern has three key knowledges, one at Thread Rank 1, one at Thread Rank 2, and one at Thread Rank 3? Do I need to find another two pattern items?

Or am I misunderstanding the connection between key knowledges and ranks?

[Mataxes]

Still a little unsure about the following:

A single pattern item holds a single key knowledge concerning its true pattern

What if the true pattern has three key knowledges, one at Thread Rank 1, one at Thread Rank 2, and one at Thread Rank 3? Do I need to find another two pattern items?

Or am I misunderstanding the connection between key knowledges and ranks?

You're mildly misunderstanding. There are two different things here. (1) thread items and (2) Named people and places. There are similarities when it comes to the basic underlying theory, but in practical application they are handled differently.

Thread items have ranked key knowledges, requiring you to learn subsequent information to advance your bond with the item and unlock the various bonuses and abilities. You must learn the first key knowledge before you can learn the second, etc. For these, you don't need to worry about 'pattern items' because for practical purposes, a pattern item of a thread item doesn't exist.*

People and (Named) places don't have ranked knowledges, they have pattern items. Each pattern item is connected to one key knowledge. Once you have learned the key knowledge associated with the pattern item (that is, how/why the item is important or represents something magically important about the target), only the type of pattern item (minor, major, or core) determines the maximum rank thread you can have woven to it. If you have a core pattern item and learn the relevant key knowledge, you can weave up to a Rank 15 thread without needing to learn additional information.

People and places can have anywhere from 0 to 5 pattern items, each of which is associated with a key knowledge. But these knowledges aren't ranked the same way they are for thread items. You don't need to learn the knowledge from one before you can take advantage of another.

(And if a person doesn't have any pattern items... you can't use thread magic against them. Sorry. Remember, you need the item as the anchor point for your thread.)

(Then there are Group True Patterns, which are their own special case, but let's not go there. Yet.)

* Theory sidebar: Purifier is the pattern item, there isn't a separate thing somewhere -- like a scabbard -- that could be used as a connection to Purifier's True Pattern.

[Jaracove]

So:

"Slayer" A magical Spear
Rank 1: Key Knowledge - find out its name = unlocks power
Rank 2: Key Knowledge - find out where it was forged = unlocks power
Rank 3: Key Knowledge - find out who forged the axe = unlocks power

Bob the Archer
His quiver is a Major Pattern Item (so Rank 9/Abilities 3)
Key Knowledge - find out Bob's name = increase a max of 3 abilities to a max of +9?

Page 229: "By researching the history and activities of a True Pattern, it is possible to obtain its Research Knowledges."

Page 229: "Once a character knows one or more Key Knowledges of a True Pattern, he can weave a thread to the True Pattern."

Does the answer to a Key Knowledge unlock all of a pattern item's potential? I ask because the above sentences mentions research Knowledges (plural).

For example, if I learn the key knowledge of a major pattern item, do I have to spend LP and weave threads for each +1 improvement and do I have to do this separately for each of the 3 abilities I can increase or are all 3 abilities improved at the same time?

I think if I had an example of a pattern item, say, major (rank 9/abilities 3), it would wrap this up.