Astral Sight and Thread Weaving

[Jaracove]

Ok, so Thread Weaving is used to weave threads to a pattern. It can also give a vague insight into the pattern.

Astral Sight/Sensing gives more information into a pattern but cannot be used to weave threads.

Even though on page 210 we are told by using Astral Sight, we can see that an "adept’s pattern might show the adept’s Discipline, threads woven to the adept’s pattern, and signs of injury or blood magic use", the rules are still vague on what precisely, Astral Sight can show a player. I mean, is the adept's Discipline, threads woven, and signs of injury or blood magic the only details decipherable or is there more?

Again on page 211 "While astral sensing allows adepts to view the patterns of spells and magical effects used during combat..."

But I can't find any specific details concerning what exactly the pattern of a spell shows, and ditto with magical effects.

Then on page 211 we read that, "The gamemaster determines the specific details of a subject’s pattern, based on the subject’s nature. He also determines what information a character can learn from studying a subject’s pattern, based on the result of the Astral Sensing test."

Again this is all vague and seemingly handwaved into the domain of GM's prerogative. Which is great and all, but there's very little boundaries here as to what a GM should - and probably more to the point - shouldn't "make up".

The examples of pages 212 are a bit vague too because they do not give you limits, only examples of what the power can do.

Astral Sight
"Maloren sees the orichalcum wire woven around the elemental stones and determines that they contain the item’s pattern. Maloren makes another Astral Sight test to study the pattern. Maloren sees a chain of interlocking waves that flows from one end of the pattern to the other, looping around brighter spots that match up with the enchanted stones. The stones are different colors and patterns, based on the element infused into it. One shows dozens of birds swirling around a vortex of air, the second has a swirling mass of boulders, while the third has flaming sprites flitting back and forth through a bonfire in a complex dance."

Then

Thread Sight
"Maloren decides to weave a Rank 1 thread to the torc’s pattern. He has already learned the required Key Knowledge, so he makes a Thread Weaving test against the thread’s Weaving Difficulty. As he does so, an image of the torc’s pattern forms in his mind. Using his Thread Sight, Maloren sees the pattern’s simple blue knotwork, twisting around three glowing orbs of silver white, ruddy brown, and orange-red"

So describe a collection of colourful literary appropriate effects based on the magic item in question using Astral Sight, or describe a vague impression of the torc's pattern, i.e. like the Astral Sight information, but with less detail using Thread Sight?

I'm ok with Thread Sight, for example, you find a sword and after casting Thread Sight on it, you see the blade enveloped in fire (probably does extra damage), but I'm finding it hard to determine what exactly Astral Sight shows a character

Am I missing something?

[Slimcreeper]

There really is a lot of leeway for the GM here. I would avoid stepping too much on other talents and spells, though, and it should be focused on the pattern's interaction with magic.

For example, Empathic Sense detects emotion, so astral sight doesn't. Although I might allow a Namegiver's general demeanor to affect the appearance in the astral. A bright and bubbly person might appear all yellows and smells of fresh rain on turned earth, for example.

Divine Aura checks for emotional state and general physical condition. I would say that Astral Sight can't reveal too much about temporary states, such as fear or injury.

And that's it for sensing abilities so far?

I think of Thread Sight as kind of like looking through a jeweler's loupe at the ear of an animal. It has a distinct look, but you can't really learn anything about the whole thing.

[etherial]

Even though on page 210 we are told by using Astral Sight, we can see that an "adept’s pattern might show the adept’s Discipline, threads woven to the adept’s pattern, and signs of injury or blood magic use", the rules are still vague on what precisely, Astral Sight can show a player. I mean, is the adept's Discipline, threads woven, and signs of injury or blood magic the only details decipherable or is there more?

Again on page 211 "While astral sensing allows adepts to view the patterns of spells and magical effects used during combat..."

But I can't find any specific details concerning what exactly the pattern of a spell shows, and ditto with magical effects.

Then on page 211 we read that, "The gamemaster determines the specific details of a subject’s pattern, based on the subject’s nature. He also determines what information a character can learn from studying a subject’s pattern, based on the result of the Astral Sensing test."

Again this is all vague and seemingly handwaved into the domain of GM's prerogative. Which is great and all, but there's very little boundaries here as to what a GM should - and probably more to the point - shouldn't "make up".

The examples of pages 212 are a bit vague too because they do not give you limits, only examples of what the power can do.

A big part of it has to do with the character's experience. I've always pictured the astral reflection of talents as comic book muscles. The more a character raises a particular talent, the more noticeably it bulges out of their pattern, possibly crackling with the energies it uses. A Wizard is going to recognize the telltale signs of another Wizard's astral pattern with ease: polyhedral spell matrices, the crackling octarine bands of Spellcasting, lensing effects of the Research Talent gathering light and projecting insight, etc. She'll usually be able to suss out the other Spellcasters with relative ease: floating red sigils blackly glowing would be a pretty sure sign of Nethermancy. But she may have difficulty telling the difference between a Warrior's Pattern and a Swordmaster's Pattern without having some specific experience examining each. An Elementalist, by contrast, would be able to tell the difference easily because they'll recognize the Warrior's Wood Skin Talent (assuming they know that Swordmaster's don't get it).

Similarly, a character will usually be able to estimate their target's Circle by measuring the relative strength of their Pattern and their Talents, particularly the number, type, and strength of their Spell Matrices, but a Novice Adept who manages to detect the Pattern of a higher Circle Adept might not be able to discern the differences between a Journeyman, a Master, or a MultiDiscipline Adept just because they simply haven't examined that many Patterns of that degree of Strength.

[Jaracove]

This sort of proves my point, there's a lot of 'this is how I do it' and 'this is how I see it'.

It's all too open to the point that it doesn't really mean anything because it can mean anything

[Mataxes]

Well... what do you want it to mean?

Boiled down to its most basic, Astral Sight allows a character to gain information using magical senses. The extent of that information, and how it manifests, can vary from individual to individual. That information must be magical in some way, or able to be deduced through it.

Different GMs will handle the way they present that information in different ways. Some like to go into descriptive detail, fleshing out their version of Barsaive with details like etherial describes above. Others will just pass along the relevant details. ("She's an adept, probably Journeyman tier, but you aren't sure of her Discipline.")

I'm not quite sure what you're asking for... are you looking for a more concrete table of results? That is, "1 success gets you this info, 2 successes gives you that plus this other bit..."?

[Jaracove]

Well... what do you want it to mean?

Boiled down to its most basic, Astral Sight allows a character to gain information using magical senses. The extent of that information, and how it manifests, can vary from individual to individual. That information must be magical in some way, or able to be deduced through it.

Different GMs will handle the way they present that information in different ways. Some like to go into descriptive detail, fleshing out their version of Barsaive with details like etherial describes above. Others will just pass along the relevant details. ("She's an adept, probably Journeyman tier, but you aren't sure of her Discipline.")

I'm not quite sure what you're asking for... are you looking for a more concrete table of results? That is, "1 success gets you this info, 2 successes gives you that plus this other bit..."?

I'm asking for specifics on what a GM should and should not reveal to a player via Astral Sight. If it's basically up to the GMs then, that's not really helpful. Saying different GMs will handle things differently doesn't really tell me anything.

GM 1: She's a spellcaster
GM 2: She's a nethermancer
GM 3: She's a nethermancer 4th circle
GM 4: She's a nethermancer 4th circle with the following spells
GM 5: She's a nethermancer 4th circle with the following spells and has the following blood magic active

Which GM is right? None of them. All of them. No real way of adjudicating.

So how does a GM know when they've not given enough info to the pc or how can a GM know when they've given them too much info? There's no way of knowing because Astral Sight is so vague. Sure you might have one success or four, but the GM still has to make 'on the fly' decisions about what sort of info to give out (or again, what sort of info should be kept back).

[Mataxes]

Taking a step away from the specific power, let me reframe this.

When you're running an adventure that involves investigation, and the PCs make Perception or Awareness tests to (for example) find clues at the scene of a crime, how does the GM know how much information to give, and when they've given too much?

Sure, there are guidelines for noticing specific things with Perception tests in the GM Guide, but what about things that aren't on the table? How do you determine the right balance of information to provide?

Astral Sight is the same idea. It's a test to notice stuff. What information does the GM need to provide?

What style of game are they running? What is the purpose of the scene, and how does this bit of investigation factor into that? Is the information intended to advance to story? Is it just 'fluff' to shape the environment? Is the character looking to learn something specific? If so, is the result of the roll is high enough to learn it?

With those questions in mind, decide what information you want (or need) to reveal. The talent and associated information lets you know the kind of stuff that can be learned. At that point... *waves hands about*... make a judgment call and share whatever information seems appropriate.

Edit to add:
I hope I'm not coming across as dismissive, because I don't really understand what you're looking for. You say you want more detail. Okay. What kind of detail?

As I said in my previous post, do you mean more concrete guidelines like, "With a single success, you can see the target is an adept. With two successes, you can determine their tier (novice/journeyman/etc). With three, you can identify their Discipline..."? Or is it different information or guidance you're after?

[Slimcreeper]

Of course, you can make a specific chart for your table if you want more predictability and transparency for yourself and your players. It will come at the cost of some flexibility.

[Jaracove]

Thank you for the replies.

Comparing Astral Sight to an investigation ability is helpful, in as far as I now know to use Astral Sight as a means to revealing information to the party that will advance the plot. But whereas the investigation skill is there to reveal specific clues to forward the plot, Astral Sight still suffers from being too wide open an 'investigative' skill that can reveal anything. The investigation analogy does help though.

Concerning your question what exactly am I looking for:

"With a single success, you can see the target is an adept. With two successes, you can determine their tier (novice/journeyman/etc). With three, you can identify their Discipline..."?

This is exactly the kind of information I am thinking of concerning Astral Sight.

I feel I am now getting to grips with the talent.

Thanks again.

[etherial]

I think you are bumping into one of the areas the Game Developers have deliberately left vague. How much Astral Space reflects and is reflected by Physical Space is left up to the GM so that the GM can tune things to their degree of liking depending on the Campaign. So while the Simulationist in me totally understands your desire to be consistent in how much and what kind of information Astral Sight will detect, the Narrativist in me understands that a proper horror story (both in the literary and in the Earthdawn-specific senses) requires the GM to give the players just enough information that the answer to all their questions is obvious in retrospect.