9-th circle spells

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Dyrmagnos
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9-th circle spells

Post by Dyrmagnos » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:45 pm

I dont have access to book now but i was wandering that requirements to 9-th circle in Wizard discipline was creation of new 9-th circle spell. I dont remember there was the same sentence in all magician disciplines but now comes my question.

Mage Guilds should just crush under 9-th circle spells but why its not happening? (quite abstract question)
In Barsaive alone there is something like 500+ magicians with circles 9+ so every of them had to create at least 1 spell of circle 9.
Half of all created spells are i think 9-th circle. Creating spell is hard and expensive process that normally is something that most of magicians never do.
When someone finally finish that for sure he wants to show that to community (maybe for fame or just for money).
What do you think about it?

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The Undying
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Re: 9-th circle spells

Post by The Undying » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:48 pm

I raised a very similar question when requesting some spell creation guidelines.

I don't think there are necessarily 500+ at this tier, but there are enough. It's an interesting question, though - would Wardens actually share this knowledge? I could see how many might not, given both the level of effort involved, the very personal nature or attachment of the spell, and the fact that it is likely intimately tied to their legend (close to a 'signature' spell, and it's POSSIBLE from a universe-perspective that a spell created by a magician is forever tied to their pattern, meaning those that learn it have some form of connection back to that Adept)

Telarus
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Re: 9-th circle spells

Post by Telarus » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:37 am

Share the spell? Probably rarely. Use the signature spell as the Pattern to craft a magical item/thread item that has that effect? ALL THE TIME.

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Mataxes
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Re: 9-th circle spells

Post by Mataxes » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:05 am

Now... how many of those spells might actually be useful? Especially for adventuring?

I can't help but have this vision of the upper echelons of magicians (Wizards especially) kind of like graduate or PhD programs. That is, a lot more research than practical application.

I mean, yeah. There are probably a bunch of spells out there. But... coming up with interesting spells (and balancing them) is hard.
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Tattered Rags
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Re: 9-th circle spells

Post by Tattered Rags » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:12 pm

"My new spell is wonderful!"
"What does it do?"
"It cleans your teeth! It's amazing! Even gets rid of bad breath!"
"That's...that's great. Why are your teeth still so bad?"
"Oh, it's extraordinarily painful. I'm not using it."
Adventure I'm running:
Under the Stars

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Under the Stars Postmortem

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The Undying
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Re: 9-th circle spells

Post by The Undying » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:54 pm

"I've constructed a spell that opens a portal directly to the Plane of Fire!"
"That seems like an extraordinarily bad idea!"
"It is!"
"..."
"..."

:D

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Kosmit
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Re: 9-th circle spells

Post by Kosmit » Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:00 am

The Undying wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:54 pm
"I've constructed a spell that opens a portal directly to the Plane of Fire!"
"That seems like an extraordinarily bad idea!"
"It is!"
"..."
"..."

:D
This is actually not that bad :D high circle spells in my opinion should be more utility like Gateway for nethermancers in 3ed. Astral Portal? Why not elemental portal for elementalists ;)

It just came to me that there could be some high circle option for Neth, and Elem to boost summoning (allowing more time with spirits, more services and higher strength combined). Its because those magicians should have a way to develop into pure spellcasters (maybe combat mages), enchanters and summoners. That could be amplified a bit.

Lys
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Re: 9-th circle spells

Post by Lys » Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:38 am

Honestly it would make more sense for the Warden advancement ritual to involve designing a spell of any circle. Spell design in general is hard, and it's logical for most innovation and advancement in the field to be driven by the equivalent of Ph.Ds and graduate students. Some adepts would design low circle spells because they're easier, some would design higher circle spells because they're more prestigious, but all are sufficient to show the adept's aptitude with magic. Also advancement rituals are entirely optional, all you really need to advance to a circle if for someone at that circle or higher to teach you. Moreover, even if a teacher does insist on a ritual, the ones in the book are just suggestions, the ritual could be something else entirely*. So it's not the case that every Wizard advancing up into a Warden-level Circle will be designing a spell anyway.

*For example, since there haven't been any tournaments to participate in, my Swordmistress just challenges potential teachers to duels.

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The Undying
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Re: 9-th circle spells

Post by The Undying » Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:19 am

Lys wrote:
Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:38 am
Also advancement rituals are entirely optional, all you really need to advance to a circle if for someone at that circle or higher to teach you. Moreover, even if a teacher does insist on a ritual, the ones in the book are just suggestions, the ritual could be something else entirely*. So it's not the case that every Wizard advancing up into a Warden-level Circle will be designing a spell anyway.
Everything is optional at the end of the day. :D Your point is still good, though, Lys.

@Dyrmagnos

Taking Lys's comment from a different perspective: Advancement rituals are meant to be a hallmark in a player's growing legend. It's a line in the sand, like going from playing Minor League sports to Major League sports. Can you do it without any pomp? Yeah, sure, nothing says you have to. But, as a GM, this is an opportunity to really make a moment in time stand out for your players. You can do this at a small scale - for example, have the player participate in some kind of large feast with family, friends, peers, etc. That way, they'll remember this hallmark occasion, which is really the intent. You can also make it a significant part of their legend by forcing them to complete an adventure tied to that ritual concept. Really, that's what most of the existing rituals are: story ideas for the GM to pursue. If you want to keep it a bit more Rules As Written (RAW) but your player has zero interest in designing spells, then you can still carry the spirit, which is have them go and "re-discover" a forgotten spell (track down a long-passed Warden, go to where s/he died, recover his/her grimoire, and restore to your Discipline's knowledge - or at least to the knowledge of you and your instructor - a lost spell).

Specific to the Warden+ level spells though, an additional note:

Basically, at this Circle, you're really not talking public knowledge in my opinion. Spells of this Circle and above are starting to move into "destroy villages or worse" level. They may be guarded for the sake of Barsaive by individuals or by cabals. They may have been lost to time - before the Scourge, there were few enough Adepts of this tier, even fewer of this tier came to be within kaers, some of those that did come to this tier may have died along with their fellows in a failed kaer while others died without an apprentice (at all or of that caliber). Regardless, at this Circle, Adepts are likely chasing rumors of spells, and acquiring an actual spell is likely a full-on adventure, with Master level spells (if such things even exist) likely subject to a multi-adventure story (these are likely held INSANELY close hold by either the half-dozen Adepts at this tier or in lost grimoires now in the clutches of Great Dragons and Great Named Horrors).

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