High Circle Preview: All Links + Wrap-Up Discussion

The Undying · Post by **The Undying** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:48 am

Best = Illusionist. EXTREMELY useful, VERY flavorful, feature that best represents its Discipline.
Best Utility = Elementalist. It's neat, themed abilities that can make a big impact, if the right situation comes up. Oddly, they all actually scream "bunch together," which is generally not a good idea when they'd be most be useful - which is to say, versus other magicians, or maybe Horrors.
Least Balanced = Warrior. An always-on "Ignore Combat Effects" ability does not seem good. It also steals a chunk of drama that GMs can use for combat.
Biggest Problem = Weaponsmith. If there's a Weaponsmith in the party, everyone will receive this benefit, which just makes the GM's life harder. If there isn't a Weaponsmith in the party, this might as well not exist (except for a potential plot hook for a player who REALLY wants to go out of their way to get into an NPC Weaponsmith's good graces to the point that they'd earn a slot on their roster for this)

Concerns

It's a little irksome that the Disciplines LEAST able to shoulder Strain are the ones who are most likely to accumulate it with activated abilities. This is a running thing in ED4, with Hold Thread being the mostly insanely whackadoo problem place.

--- 13th Circle Feature

Best = Illusionist, Swordmaster, Beasmaster, Thief (in that order). EXTREMELY useful, VERY flavorful, feature that best represents its Discipline. I LOVE THESE, cannot speak enough praises about these, I just wish that all of the features at this Circle could be this grand.
Incredible Flavor = Elementalist. I'm honestly sad that this kind of thing takes so long to manifest for the Discipline, but better late than never.
Interesting & Good Flavor = Scout. It's fun, it's interesting. The "blend in" part feels a bit weird as it seems like it kind of comes out of the blue.
Coolest = Sky Raider. This is just great, such fun, much wow.
Most Forced Feeling = Cavalryman. I can see why this is insanely important. It just feels jammed in because it's needed, though, with nothing really building up to it.
Most Eh = Warrior. This feels very underwhelming. I'd also say the 9th and 13th Circles are reversed.

Specific Notes

Perfect Shot (Archer): What. The. ^#$@. Damage bonus should not be this accessible and this cheap. The only saving grace is that they could miss the shot and the Strain wasted.
Astral Face (Nethermancer): Kind of boring but very effective.
Encore (Troubadour): Not sure how we can see this at Circle 13 but we think that giving Magicians faster access to spells is so strong it MUST be placed at Circle 15. Given the disparity in Social Defense versus the other Defenses, this just seems insane.
Mystic Grounding (Weaponsmith): I'm close to pointing at this and saying "game-warping." Players would be pissed to see it levied on them, and that's a bit of an alarm for me. The per-day limit make SOME difference, but I'm tempted to say it still isn't enough since it AUTOMATICALLY HAPPENS. They should at least have to perform a test.

Concerns

Why is Astral Face (Nethermancer) a Simple Action while Elemental Form (Elementalist) is a Standard Action. They seem sufficiently similar that they should both be in the same Simple/Standard slot, and Standard would really suck given the weird "X use per day" accounting.
The additional level of bookkeeping on many of these does feel a bit awkward but not the end of the world.

--- Karma Abilities

In general, I really like all of these. The "while adjacent to an ally" (Archer, Troubadour, Warrior) seems a bit wonky.
I hope for great things from the Elementalist's 9th Circle ability on designing/crafting (especially since it stands out like a sore thumb given that Weaponsmiths DON'T get this).

--- Talents

This one's pretty hard for me to talk to, given that I don't have the Talent text.

General Thoughts

I have significant concerns about both "Truth Through Lies" (Illusionist) and "Plant Talk" (Elementalist) as Discipline Talents. Both of these mainline an investigation aspect that IS NOT core to Discipline, no matter how you slice it, making them poor choices as Discipline Talents.
I still need "Matrix Sight" (Nethermancer) explained to me, seems pretty useless based on the name, though maybe it was mispelled and is meant to say "Matrix Strike".
I'm not really catching why Scout should mainline "Elemental Walk".
On a positive note, Thief's Talent progression seems outstanding, and their new Talents are great.

Significant Issues

I wanted to separate this, mainly because I've railed on it before, but I cannot understate how much I am against "Plant Talk" as a Discipline Talent for Elementalist. I think I've made a great case as to why it should be abandoned, maybe with "Perfect Focus" sliding into it's spot. I know this sounds crazy dramatic, but I'd almost call this a deal-breaker for me on ED4. As a player, swallowing the dead spot that is Hold Thread is incredibly unpalatable; if I had to do that twice (in a row, no less) with "Plant Talk" right on its heels, I'd probably talk my GM into ditching the system once his vision is played out versus continuing to build it for the longevity. I won't get into my take as GM as it belabors the point.

Loba · Post by **Loba** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:03 pm

You put a lot of effort into that. Thank you for the summary.

I am somewhat curious how fluid the work is at this point and how amenable the team is to changing some things. As you have pointed out - there are some things which feel... wrong. While, honestly, most of it is a vast improvement over the old system while still maintaining the odd but enjoyable style points that Earthdawn brings.

Does the team care to comment?

The Undying · Post by **The Undying** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:05 pm

I agree, there's a lot to love about ED4. While I do try to point out some of that goodness, it's also a lot easier to point out problems, and people (myself definitely) tend to be a bit more edgy about the bad versus the good.

It's worth noting that, despite the multiple revisions that ED has gone through, I think it's safe to say that ED4 is the biggest real change. There's always risk with change. As a whole, I think ED4 is for the better. However, I do think that some of the changes introduce new systemic problems. Talent choices, though, both in text and Discipline progression, are the most painful (for me) as they're required spending, they should be exciting and interesting and flavorful (within that Discipline) and widely useful.

Mataxes has come on the forum and noted previously that all the material is fluid. I'm sure there's varying levels of fluidity, but at least for "Plant Talk," he has said that it's placement as Discipline Talent is up for grab. He has acknowledged that some Talent text has changed since the backer text went out. So, I think they're definitely listening to us and making changes as they see appropriate to meet the comments. This is totally commendable by the way, kudos to them, it's hard enough pulling content together that fits your vision, but then responding to community thoughts/concerns, weighing them against all the previous work you've done, and integrating them in whole or in part is no easy job but it much appreciated.

The Undying · Post by **The Undying** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:43 pm

I'm sure it's obvious by now that my play character is an Elementalist. I do try to take a critical eye to the other Disciplines, especially from the GM perspective as my part in that role for my other table. Still, this Discipline holds a special place in my heart.

That note made, I think it's worth noting that the ED4 changes position this Discipline to have the least relevant Talents of all the Disciplines. Again, don't get me wrong, I think that many of the changes into ED4 were sorely needed (the Temperature Talent was just ... head scratching). However, in the progression of Discipline Talents, they receive:

Two Talents for their overly hamstrung feature, probably used 1-2 times daily: Elemental Tongues (3), Summon (5)
Four daily-use Talents: Wood Skin (1), Earth Skin (7), Vine Armor (11), Stone Skin (14)
One weekly-use Talent (yeah, it's great, but thirty minutes, requires sufficient burning material and space): Fire Heal (2)
Two good but highly situational Talents: Elemental Hold (4), Elemental Walk (13)
One incredibly useful but mostly passive utility: Awareness (1)
One mostly passive utility (ED4's change here is good but could go further): Patterncraft (1)
Two straight dead spots: Hold Thread (8), Plant Talk (9)

So, ignoring Option Talents, an Elementalist exists SOLELY to cast spells:

Cast one with Spellcasting (1) or two with Concise Casting (9)
Supercharge the spell with Willforce (6)
Threadweave slowly (1) or quickly with Spliced Weave (15)

Comparing this to the other magicians:

Wizards are very spell focused, but they have lots of decisions they can make for that with the Glyphs to change it up, get more active Talents associated with it (Tenacious Weave, Astral Interference). Otherwise, they exchange some great but situational Talents for other ones
Nethermancer gets Frighten for a non-spell regularly useful Talent and then get some Talents that further make interesting choices for casting. Otherwise, they exchange some great but situational Talents for other ones as well as daily-use.
Illusionist is in the best shape, lots to do other than spell casting

Post by **Mataxes** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:26 am

So... understanding that I can't make any promises... but that I am open (as always) to feedback... and setting aside for now specific rules implementations...

What do you think is missing from Elementalists (in particular)? is there something that was part of their kit before that you think isn't now? Something they still have but has been sidelined/gutted/nerfed? Something they've never had but (in your opinion) should?

Because... look... I understand love for this game as much as anybody. I can also recognize that there are many different (sometimes wildly different) approaches, assumptions, and suchlike to the game. (I mean, hell, there's the completely new-to-me interpretation of Item History in relation to thread ranks I encountered a few weeks back as an example.)

So... I'm going to avoid the long thing I just typed and deleted because it derails. I'll just wrap up with this:

I will take the feedback in the spirit it is offered, as long as that spirit is returned in kind.

The Undying · Post by **The Undying** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:07 am

I ... I ... I just spent an hour (my lunch break) writing a reply ... and the board ate it ... and now it's gone ...

I could literally weep right now ...

*sigh*

I'll have to try to replicate it tonight ...

The Undying · Post by **The Undying** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:08 am

(Post is going to be shorter, given that it's a re-draft of lost material. Hope it doesn't come off curt as a result. Also, format is a bit wonky, since it's done in text editor.)

Mataxes wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:26 am
I will take the feedback in the spirit it is offered, as long as that spirit is returned in kind.

This could be read different ways. Please feel free to drop me a PM if the deleted content was mainly aimed at me. Don't worry about polish or bluntness, and if there's something I can do more of or less of, I'd rather hear it and try to apply it.

That aside, I'm assuming this is a "don't give me problems, give me solutions" kind of thing (in the ... less colorful ... words of my old O-6).

Preface to the remainder of this post: These are all my opinions. If I slip up and it sounds like I'm trying to couch something as fact, that's not the case. E.g., "This is broke" is really "(I feel like) this is broke."

My thoughts on Elementalist:

----- Summary -----

> Summoning could be strengthened
> Something could bring the 'hardiness' concept forward
> The Discipline would benefit from a highly useful Standard Action Talent
> Air and Water Discipline Talents would be nice
> Carrot for elemental rotation would be nice
> 13th Circle feature could be better as a spirit ability
> Circles 8 & 9
> Mystic Defense Conundrum

----- Summoning -----

It was too powerful. Now it feels too weak. Primary problem: 30 minute time is too long to impact current situations. Secondary problem: Aid/Enhance Summoner too weak (especially got time investment).

Recommendation: Fragment summoning in two.
1) Ritual format: Same as current, except faster (5 or 10 minute). This allows it to have an impact - tank can maybe hold door for 5-10 minutes, not 30.
2) Express format: Doable in long combat, 5-10 rounds (30-60 seconds). Duration changes to rounds (+2 per extra success). If necessary, eliminate access to Aid/Enhance. Again, this allows it to have an impact - tank can maybe hold off heat long enough for much needed support.

----- Hardiness -----

Elementalist have 4, arguably 5 (Elemental Walk), Talents that just buff their hardiness. I like this, but there's a "so what" missing, especially given the focus this theme receives.

Recommendation: Add a Talent that does something to make all this hardiness useful. I don't have a specific recommendation yet.

----- Standard Action Talent -----

Right now, Elementalists feel like it's "cast spell" or "do nothing." They are lacking a Talent that they can use to impact the world or change the situation. Example is found in Nethermancer's Fright - it's flavorful, it's inline with the Discipline, and it's generally useful often (more so in combat than out).

Recommendation: Add a Standard Action Talent that does something that is regularly useful. I don't have a specific recommendation yet.
- Could play up their role as buff, debuff, or area control/denial.
- Could play up their improved hardiness over other magicians.
- Should be unique from current spell space/effects (or good enough to warrant existence as a Talent even if something comparable exists as a spell).
- Veering into mechanics, it would be neat if this were similar to the 5-Elements-in-one-thing concept introduced for spells. An interesting base general-purpose ability with a series of Knacks that add the Element-specific things would be cool.

----- Air and Water Discipline Talents -----

Elementalists strive for balance among the elements. So, it stands out that there are multiple Earth/Wood while Air/Water are absent (from a Discipline Talent perspective). These are available as Talent Options, but none of them are Good Enough to be Discipline Talents. Mostly a flavor conflict.

Recommendation: Nothing necessary; it would just be nice to see Air and Water represented as Discipline Talents. That being said, none of the existing Talent Options are strong enough for this role (in my option).

----- Elemental Rotation -----

Elementalists strive for balance among the elements. This is just never represented, other than the concept of Discipline Crisis.

Recommendation: (Ignoring the how) Add a carrot that encourages elemental rotation (at Talent level if applicable, definitely at spell level). I have a number of ideas here. I'll touch on the one that I think is most promising but likely least popular:
1) Replace the guts of "Elemental Mastery" with something that steadily builds bonuses as the Adept rotates through elements. Current Talent is incredibly strong but overly passive (but can't overly comment given I neither have the text nor the prominently-featured knacks Panda speaks to). This new Talent can be less strong but still great (bonus applies to both Threadweaving & Spellcasting maybe) but is actively used and changes play, which is fun. I can provide more details if desired.

----- 13th Circle feature -----

I love the feel of this. It feels weird that it shows up this late. It also feels weird that a Fire Elemental provides the same generic bonuses to the summoner as a Water Elemental.

Recommendation:
1) Take the flavor of this and move it to elemental spirits. Veering slightly into mechanics, this could be broken into two layers: (a) new ability beside Aid/Enhance that gives better persistent bonus for same Element with an equal penalty for opposing element, (b) another new additional ability available to stronger spirits that does the same as earlier BUT ALSO does the free thread and cannot cast spells of opposing.
2) Create a new 13th Circle feature.

----- Circles 8 & 9 -----

This is purely mechanical / system. I know you wanted to ignore it, but I felt it was important to include it.

I mentioned previously that the 8th & 9th Circle Talents are currently problematic (for me). I also mention that the Discipline could benefit from one or more generally useful and impactful Standard Action Talents (one that adds the "so what" to the hardiness aspect). I'd consider these the place to put them. 9th Circle is still "in play" in the sense that the material that defines it has yet to be published. 8th Circle is technically NOT "in play" since its progression is already published. Given the lack of adventure material for ED4, though, I would personally say the Discipline (and all other magicians) would be in a better place if this Talent was bumped out at the appropriate Circle and replaced with something else.

----- Mystic Defense Conundrum -----

Another purely mechanical / system. Elementalists can develop one of the best Mystic Defenses. Currently, this also hampers or prevents a variety of their stuff (spells, some Talents, some spirit abilities). Without diving into specifics, something to adjust for this would make a significant improvement.

The Undying · Post by **The Undying** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:23 am

Why is "have a Standard Action Talent that does something meaningful and interesting" so important (to me)? Well, keeping in mind the forum we are in, adventurers should always have something else to do in case, say, their hands are bound and they can't Spellcast. Even aside from that, though, it'd be interesting and rewarding for the Elemental affinity to reflect in active ways beyond spellcasting.

Also, why does 'hardiness' feel unfulfilling right now? It's like someone addressing an "I fall down a lot problem" with "eh, it doesn't bother me so much anymore" versus "so I learned some acrobatics to improve my balance." --WHY-- is an Elementalist more hardy then other magicians?
> So he can withstand more abuse? Eh, probably not, that's fighter territory. Even if so, probably don't need multiple rounds of it across multiple Talents.
> Because he tends to get exposed to the harshness of the elements more often? There's probably a better, more succinct, more flavorful way to address than then an all-purpose hardiness buff over multiple Talents.
> Because he risks encounters with wild animals and spirits? Well, the Discipline somehow doesn't place fighting as even an Option in these cases, and "I'll get bitten a lot but make it out ok" doesn't seem like a good strategy, so we're back to the idea that there are probably better, more succinct, more flavorful ways to address this.
> So I can stand beside my friends in battle? Mmmm, current Option Talents and Spells don't reflect this particularly well, but again, probably better, more succinct, more flavorful ways to address this.

At the heart of the "hardiness" problem, though, is that it seems like a more simple answer would be "bump to Durability 5 like his Scout friend." If the "why" behind an Elementalist's hardiness is the primarily rigors of travel in the wild, that seems to overlap almost entirely with Scout, but the answer for Scout is "durability 5" while the answer for Elementalists is "lots of hardiness Talents." For perspective, Elementalists have more "hardiness" focused Talents than most front-liners and basically as many as a Warrior (most of them exactly the same). It appears misplaced without a strong "so what."

Post by **Mataxes** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:02 pm

The Undying wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:08 am

Mataxes wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:26 am
I will take the feedback in the spirit it is offered, as long as that spirit is returned in kind.
This could be read different ways. Please feel free to drop me a PM if the deleted content was mainly aimed at me. Don't worry about polish or bluntness, and if there's something I can do more of or less of, I'd rather hear it and try to apply it.

It wasn't. I was rambling in circles about... not being perfect, doing the best we can, that sort of stuff.

I was tired, and wandering away from the point.

I don't have time to look at your posts in depth at the moment (off to the day gig in half an hour), and I can't promise a direct, or in-depth response when I do. I will look at them, though.

The Undying · Post by **The Undying** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:46 pm

For what it's worth, nobody is (perfect, that is).

Thanks for all your hard word. ED4 is a great product, it made some great changes. Like all of us, it's not perfect, but that's ok. I think all of us just want it to be the best it can be. At the end of the day, some differences just come down to conflicts of preference and vision, and it is what it is. The best that can be made from that is for us (community) to try to respectfully, productively, and briefly present our opinions to you, the dev team, for consideration. I'm sure I can do a better job on the productive and brief part, but hopefully I've never been disrespectful (I know I've said a few times things like "this was a bad decision," and that may seem like a pointed jab, but it was never meant as "this was a bad decision, Mataxes is a horrible person, who put that moron in charge"

).

FASA Games, Inc.

High Circle Preview: All Links + Wrap-Up Discussion

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