Much Ado About Nothing

Discussion on playing Earthdawn. Experiences, stories, and questions related to being a player.
BRW
Posts:39
Joined:Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:00 pm
Re: Much Ado About Nothing

Post by BRW » Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:52 pm

I am not quite sure how relevant it is to the original question, but when I made a straightforward computation how much time one needs to get to high circles I was genuinely surprised by how low the numbers were.

I calculated that time in the most brutal way, i.e.: I computed how many sessions one need to advance to a given circle given that the average number of LPs per session from GM's guide is awarded each session. In particular, I assume that no LPs are spent on:

- Optional Talents,
- Thread Items,
- Spells,
- Skills,
- etc.,

which would obviously change the outcome. Given these assumptions, it turned out that the waiting time to get to 10th circle is 34 sessions and to 15th circle - 64 sessions. This is surprisingly low. It seems that you should be able to get to 15th circle in two years of a regular campaign.

Of course, taking account of all the other things you can spend LPs on would significantly increase the waiting time, but shouldn't really affect the order of magnitude. Let's say we double the LP's needed to advance to the next circle: then it's still 68 sessions to 10th circle and 128 sessions to 15th circle. That's much, but not insanely much. Not something you couldn't achieve in a couple of years of a regular play. Definitely there are games which provide much more potential space for advancement.

The anecdotal evidence here seems to suggest that reaching master circles should be something that barely come up in practice. So my question is: why is that the case? Is it due to fact that LP's given at the tables diverge from what is suggested by the authors? Maybe I underestimated how much is spent on things other than Discipline Talents? How much should it be then?

Here's the minimal amount of time needed to reach a given circle (i.e. to advance your discipline talents to the rank of your next circle). At the higher circles I was somewhat sloppy, but this should affect the outcome significantly (not more than, say, the assumption that you will always get the average number of LPs per session:

Target Circle/Number of sessions required from the previous circie/Total number of sessions required

II/2/2
III/3/5
IV/3/8
V/4/12
VI/4/16
VII/4/20
VIII/4/24
IX/5/29
X/5/34
XI/5/39
XII/5/44
XIII/6/50
XIV/7/57
XV/7/64

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etherial
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Re: Much Ado About Nothing

Post by etherial » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:55 pm

BRW wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:52 pm
The anecdotal evidence here seems to suggest that reaching master circles should be something that barely come up in practice. So my question is: why is that the case? Is it due to fact that LP's given at the tables diverge from what is suggested by the authors? Maybe I underestimated how much is spent on things other than Discipline Talents? How much should it be then?
One important detail is that RedBrick tripled the rate of XP accrual. So back when we all had time to play every week for years on end, it took years and years to hit 15th Circle. Advancement should be faster in games that allow you to Use All Talents to Advance since each Discipline slowly accumulates Discipline Talents that aren't nearly as useful in day-to-day operations as their Talent Options. The PCs in my game only used about 75% of their Discipline Talents to advance to 8th Circle.

The two main Legend expenditures you are failing to take into account are Second Disciplines and Thread Items. Both of these will dramatically increase the combat effectiveness of your character out of proportion to their Legend Cost when compared with raising Discipline Talents one Rank, thus delaying advancement in your primary Discipline further.

BRW
Posts:39
Joined:Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:00 pm

Re: Much Ado About Nothing

Post by BRW » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:19 am

etherial wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:55 pm
The two main Legend expenditures you are failing to take into account are Second Disciplines and Thread Items. Both of these will dramatically increase the combat effectiveness of your character out of proportion to their Legend Cost when compared with raising Discipline Talents one Rank, thus delaying advancement in your primary Discipline further.
Still, in 100 sessions or so, characters should be able to reach 15th circle if LPs are awarded according to the book, so I think that my main point is still valid: according to rules as written, it is definitely doable to reach the highest circle in two-three years of a regular play. Therefore reaching 15th circle, let alone reaching Warden circles, is not purely theoretic so that kind of stuff has quite a good chance to be very practical.

That said, keep in mind that there are groups that enjoy very long campaigns, say, 6-7 years or more. This is partly the reason why I believe it might be even advisable to add an optional rule for talent advancement unrestricted to 15 ranks (a topic discussed in a different thread). In some games, you obviously simply do not want this kind of power-level to show up in the world, because that would feel silly or out of the mood, but I do not think it is the case of ED.

Telarus
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Re: Much Ado About Nothing

Post by Telarus » Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:42 pm

I have also run a few one-shots with very high Circle characters, although that takes players that are already familiar with the ins-and-outs of Earthdawn.

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